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Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by 10g1k on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:35AM (#37390810)
Evolution. It's programmed into you, the drive to reproduce. And that's a good thing. You won't understand how important and amazing it is until you have your own kid. NOTHING is more important.
Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by tr888 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:39AM (#37390843)
I really hate this attitude. It's a condescending and patronising attitude - that men who don't (or can't) have children are less. Are you really saying that absolutely nothing is more important than reproducing? For everyone, in every situation? I sincerely hope not.
Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by halfmatthalfcat on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:44AM (#37390882)
If you look at things objectively, then yes, it is the most important for the species. If you look at things relatively, then no, there's a lot of factors at play and everyone does not need to have kids (overpopulation concerns, cost of living, personal preferences, etc).

That being said, having kids brings so much perspective to a life already lived. You almost live a second (or third, forth, fifth, etc) life vicariously though them, so it's up there in "experiences to have".

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by hhjinks on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:19AM (#37391249)
Looking at things from the perspective of the species is not equivalent to looking at things objectively. Hell, there is no such thing as an objective measure of life. How can I objectively measure that a life is worth living? What if my child only lives for a few years, in agony due to getting cancer? Was such a short life worth the pain? It's impossible to say.
Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by tr888 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:57AM (#37391016)
It certainly is an experience, it's just not the only experience in life's rich tapestry!
Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by _V_ on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:45AM (#37390908)
Is it? I don't see anything patronising in there. It is just a statement. I don't think that people who cannot have children are seen as something less. This is just you wanting to be offended.

And yes, in general there is almost nothing more important other than reproduction from the perspective of species. Nothing controversial about that either.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by tr888 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:50AM (#37390956)
I'm not offended, thanks. I'm just saying that there is a life for everyone, and reproducing is not the most important thing for many. We're not talking objectively about the biology of the human species, really. We're talking about anthropology and what being a human means.
Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by _V_ on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:57AM (#37391013)
It seemed like that when you were saying how you hate "that attitude".

Nevertheless, that statement does not say that there is not a life for everyone. It merely states that there is an inner drive to have children, see them grow and ultimately take care of you and the world. And this inner drive exists despite many people trying to say otherwise.

I mean it might be cool to work for $BIGCORP and build your career. You get cool things like nice car, nice suit... But the $BIGCORP will not hold your hand when you are scared before surgery, it will not help you move something when you are old and most certainly will not wipe your butt when you are too old to get up on your own.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by em-bee on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:46AM (#37391570)
the offending part is that there should some kind of drive to have your own children or more specifically that the desire to have children is reduced to the need to reproduce.

i have children because i love them and want to care for them. i would adopt children for the same reason. i felt no drive to have children be my own. i could not care less if it is me who reproduced instead of someone else.

of course if humanity as a whole were in danger because there are not enough kids then i would want to contribute that however i can. but even then that could mean helping someone take care of their kids so they can have more kids.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by _V_ on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @10:33AM (#37392234)
Why is that offending? There is some kind of drive to have kids/to reproduce. That drive makes biological sense. I'd say that majority of living things acts on it.

If you personally don't feel that drive, there is nothing inherently bad with you and you certainly can have full and happy life. Maybe even happier because you can separate your decision and weigh pros/cons of having kids wihtout emotional involvement. But you are still probably a statistical anomaly. :)

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by em-bee on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @10:47AM (#37392390)
thank you. this may be true. obviously i can't emphasize what others feel for something that i don't feel. whether that is an anomaly is something i am rather curious about. but i can most certainly say that all my kids were a choice, one that i would make again, regardless of any troubles having them may have caused.

as for offending, i guess i am generally bothered when people make assumptions about other peoples motivations

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by _V_ on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:28PM (#37395034)
If you are happy with your choices, it does not really matter what others (especially random people on the internet) think so I'd say just ignore what others think :)

Plus I'd say that to have kids (in a family sense) does not necessarily mean they have to be your biological kids as I think that the bonding/family aspect of it is much more important than simple reproduction. Atleast for the mental well being of a person that is.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by anon291 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:53AM (#37391651)
> I really hate this attitude. It's a condescending and patronising attitude - that men who don't (or can't) have children are less. Are you really saying that absolutely nothing is more important than reproducing? For everyone, in every situation? I sincerely hope not.

Of course not. Humans (including men) show parental care to increase their young's fitness as well. Human males are not solely obsessed with the mechanics of reproduction (as many animals are). Instead, most men also want to pass something on to their children that will set them up for success, and if you look at it, throughout history, most men were striving for this and most social structures evolved to make this possible.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by 10g1k on Thursday September 07, 2023 @06:22PM (#37426420)
Read what I said, not what you imagine due to your fear of whatever. I said it is programmed into us. I did not say anyone is less or more. Although reality is that different people are less or more in various ways.
Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by ssanders82 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:58AM (#37391019)
Nah, I've seen the lives of my friends who have kids. I'm happy for them, but my wife and I don't want that life. Sounds like having kids was the right choice for you, that's great, but don't preach at us.

We looked at the choices, and made ours. Don't tell me it was the wrong choice, without knowing literally anything about me or my wife. That's pretty patronizing.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by Dudester230602 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:25AM (#37391318)
> That's pretty patronizing.

Let's be lenient, there is a whole cocktail of dont-abandon-your-child hormones in that brain.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by _V_ on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:02AM (#37391059)
If you believe that your choice is right, why are you so sensitive about it? I'm asking as a person who does not (yet) have kids myself.
Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by antasvara on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:26AM (#37391335)
I know a few couples that don't have children by choice. In small talk, they are constantly being asked how their children are doing, do they have any children, are they planning on having kids, etc.

Even when it's not meant to be judgmental, those kinds of questions can get old after a while. Then, add in the fact that the line of questioning often is judgmental and you'll frustrate even the most patient person.

It doesn't take an overly sensitive person to get frustrated by that. Hell, I got frustrated by the attitudes and questions, and I actually wanted (and now have) kids.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by _V_ on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:30AM (#37391387)
Well that tends to happen. People usually talk the most about things that are a big part of their life. So if someone wants to connect with you, they will inevitably try in certain point of life to ask if you have kids.

Nothing sinister here...

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by flangola7 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:44AM (#37391544)
You're missing the point. Hopefully not willfully
Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by _V_ on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @10:28AM (#37392150)
I really genuinely don't see the point. Yeah, it gets old when people talk about kids and ask you about it (especially when you made a desicssion to not have them), but that does not hurt my feelings. Not in a way that I would have to go around telling them to "stop preaching" etc...

Everyone around me at around 28 years of age started having a kids and guess what: our coffee talks started to revolve around parenting quite a lot more...

Makes sense since it is literally the biggest experience/thing in life for them at the time. I don't care that much - I either join in or just wait a while for another topic.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by flangola7 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:12AM (#37391145)
> If you believe that your choice is right, why are you so sensitive about it?

Sensitive about it? I don't see where you get that impression from.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by dirtybirdnj on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:21AM (#37391275)
As someone who does not have children I find it at times difficult to interact with parents specifically because of this mentality. Anything that challenges their authority over the kids (correct parenting, behavior, values etc) can be seen as a direct attack and people will get very rude and offensive. Varying levels of aggressiveness... but as someone on the other side of this there seems to be very little warning or notice that even minor transgressions can cause defensive outbursts.

There is NO LIMIT to what people will do for their kids and sometimes in a very corporate way they will use those kids to justify their awful behavior on others.

I'm dealing with some burnout related to bad job experiences, something in the way you punctuated your statement just gave me the heebie jeebies.

I apologize if this is rude just trying to articulate something I can't quite explain. Family members have kids that are awesome, I have friends that are parents that have managed to remain respectful and tolerant.

I think having kids changes your brain in an irrevocable way and sometimes people don't want to admit that.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by Glawen on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @05:00PM (#37397675)
> Anything that challenges their authority over the kids (correct parenting, behavior, values etc) can be seen as a direct attack and people will get very rude and offensive.

I'll ignore parenting advice, even more from people without children. The thing is that everyone is different, and I don't believe that there is a better way or a miraculous method which will make your kids the greatest.

Secondly, it is a selfish reason: Being parent is a unique opportunity to grow a human to your values, and hopefully leading to success. I don't see why I should adopt someone else's values.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by dirtybirdnj on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @08:54PM (#37413427)
> I don't see why I should adopt someone else's values.

Sticking to your values is all well and good but being willfully resistant to introspection is the problem. Assuming your values are always good and never without bias is lying to yourself. Nobody is perfect.

My parents tell me VERY convincing stories about how I had a great childhood and they did the best they could. They fucked me up in ways they could have never imagined and at times they just CAN'T understand why what they taught me isn't helpful or useful.

Pass on values to your kids but make sure you're not giving them blind spots too. This requires honesty and self evaluation most people are unwilling to engage in.

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by sparrish on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @10:26AM (#37392111)
I'll agree the drive is within you but that it comes from our creator God.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth..."

Re:‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of c... by thefz on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:49PM (#37396868)
Drive is to mate. That' waaayyy distant from the desire to have kids, which no mammal on earth is biologically wired to feel. It's a cultural/rational thing, such as wanting new shoes.