News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by wheelerof4te on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:01PM (#37382368)
So, this is basically what you would get when you download and build Visual Studio Code's source code.

The name is probably a world play similar to Chrome -> Chromium. A mini rant, if I may:

Microsoft's (and Google's, lol) practice of "open-sourcing" their products, but releasing a product which has "an added closed-source functionality" is dishonest at best and worthy of a giant lawsuit at worst.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by coliveira on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:31PM (#37382761)
You're 100% correct. Google and Apple started this trend, and MS perfected it: just say you're creating "open source" products, but release a closed source version. These mega companies still benefit from the work of clueless software engineers who donate their time to the open source product, but what the mega corps deliver to end users is the closed source version.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by drcongo on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:42PM (#37384180)
Serious question - no snark just genuine ignorance, what products have Google and Apple done this with?
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by Liquix on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:28PM (#37384676)
Apple released OS X/Darwin open source, but kept the moneymaking frameworks (cocoa, carbon) closed source. This generated positive PR while keeping the secret sauce needed to ship polished applications under lock and key

Google released Android open source, but then made unlocking bootloaders and flashing devices as difficult as possible for laymen. So they get to point at AOSP and say "open source" but in practice the vast majority of users end up running proprietary builds with big G's telemetry baked in

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by dataangel on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:36PM (#37384788)
This is just incorrect regarding Google. The phones they actually make, the Pixel ones, have open bootloaders.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by noman-land on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:44PM (#37384865)
Chromium also?
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by the_pwner224 on Monday September 04, 2023 @07:05PM (#37386034)
Unlocking and flashing Androids is (in general) much easier today than it was 10 years ago, mostly due to Google's efforts with fastboot and other software infrastructure. Modern Pixels are really easy to hack on.

> in practice the vast majority of users end up running proprietary builds with big G's telemetry baked in

The vast majority of users are always going to do this, regardless of how easy it is to install a custom OS.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by kiwijamo on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:00PM (#37384368)
Google - Android. Apple - Darwin, Webkit, etc.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by knallfrosch on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:49PM (#37384924)
I wasn't clueless when I built a tiny functionality into Code-OSS and I'm fine with Microsoft (or M$?) slapping telemetry on VSCode. You know, the crash reporter and usage statistics are the foundation of this incredible product/software. People use that software for free and they can disable telemetry at any time.

I'd rather work a week on VSCode for free than spending a day looking at Jetbrains' Java font rendering or waiting for Visual Studio to start.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by o1y32 on Monday September 04, 2023 @05:30PM (#37385281)
Nothing "clueless", I don't know what you are talking about. If people release/contribute to code under MIT license, they are very well aware that anyone on any projects -- open source projects, proprietary software -- can use their code as long as there is a copy of the copyright notice. Otherwise they should release it under GPL or something similar, or spend their time elsewhere. It's all clear and fair game and working as intended for decades.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by bmitc on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:10PM (#37382495)
What is dishonest about it, and what would you sue them for? I don't think you can sue for "open sourced a product and released it for free but it's not what I like".
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by wheelerof4te on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:23PM (#37382658)
"open sourced a product and released it for free but it's not what I like"

Open sourced a product and released a different product that has built-in tracking, is a walled garden for extensions and who knows what else.

An elaborate fraud.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by TheRealPomax on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:33PM (#37382788)
This is literally what the MIT license is for: it lets people take the source code, modify it, and then distribute that. As a paid product even, if that's what you want to do.

This isn't fraud, this is literally MS going "here's the MIT licensed version, and here's our own variant of that, based on obeying that license." And then they go one step further and say "We're not going to tell you that only our product exists, we are explicitly telling you where to get the MIT licensed source code, which isn't even an MIT license requirement".

This is exactly what good open source practices look like.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by mcpackieh on Monday September 04, 2023 @02:55PM (#37383680)
It's a typical and completely compliant way to use the MIT license, but good open source practice? I don't think so. The MIT license permitting this sort of thing is why I and many others consider the MIT license to be a "cuck license":

> A Cuck License is a permissive software license that that does not enforce the freedom of derivative works. This means that anyone can take software licensed under a Cuck License and turn it into proprietary software, effectively cucking the original author.

> Examples of Cuck Licenses are the MIT license and BSD license.

> Cuck License consequences:

> There have been instances where developers's usage of Cuck Licenses has backfired. One notable example is Andrew Tanenbaum' MINIX, which got taken by Intel and turned into spyware called the Intel Management Engine. Tanenbaum went on to say:

> "Many people (including me) don't like the idea of an all-powerful management engine in there at all (since it is a possible security hole and a dangerous idea in the first place), but that is Intel's business decision and a separate issue from the code it runs. A company as big as Intel could obviously write its own OS if it had to."

> However, Tanenbaum maintains that he made the correct choice licensing MINIX under the 3-clause BSD License.

https://wiki.installgentoo.com/wiki/Cuck_license

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by bmitc on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:20PM (#37383948)
That's implying that GPL is the only good license?
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by mcpackieh on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:37PM (#37384125)
No, any copyleft license is a better open source license. In fact, proprietary licenses are better as well; with MIT or BSD licenses you are writing code that a corporation will make proprietary, effectively writing proprietary code for them, except you don't get paid for it. It would be better to use a proprietary license and get paid than to use the BSD/MIT license, have your code turned into that same proprietary product, and not even get paid for it.

Even giving your code to the public domain is better than an MIT or BSD license; corporations will still be able to make it proprietary but at least it clears the air around the 'interesting question' of mixing MIT/BSD code into a copyleft project and distributing the whole lot under a copyleft license.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by CrendKing on Monday September 04, 2023 @07:50PM (#37386312)
That's pretty naive. If we are talking about individual developers, big companies like Microsoft can blatantly use your GPL code in their proprietary code and you will have no money to fight them in court anyways. If it's big company deliberately choosing MIT/BSD for their open source project, they don't need your lecture. They have their own lawyers to tell them what license benefit the most.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by debugnik on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:01AM (#37390551)
> Even giving your code to the public domain is better than an MIT or BSD license

Maybe in the US, but much of the world doesn't recognise waving away all author rights voluntarily. The closest thing to worldwide public domain is probably the Creative Commons Zero licence.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by mcpackieh on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @10:21AM (#37392027)
Pretty much only corporations get themselves in a twist over that technicality, so what's the problem? Community FOSS projects don't worry about buying a license to SQLite, but the corporations with their lawyers do. This makes public domain even better.

I'm serious, how many German individuals do you think would refuse to install sqlite on their personal computer because they lack a technically valid license for it? A few such weirdos doubtlessly exist but you can safely ignore them.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by TheRealPomax on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:23PM (#37395738)
Either you care about licenses, in which case you care about that technicality, or you don't care about licenses, in which case Microsoft using the correct license for their own code and adhering to that license is not something you care about either.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by debugnik on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:23PM (#37399722)
The risk is not "I don't have a license because public domain doesn't exist", the risk is "the rights I have are revokable on a whim because they haven't properly waived their right to do so".

SQLite has a good track record but I can imagine another strongly religious developer taking advantage of authorship rights to damage some small EU-based social organization they strongly disagreed with; just an example.

As for the weirdos, as I said SQLite has a good track record, but I'd think twice over a much smaller dependency. However, I've seen enough disregard for FOSS licenses in business to know the weirdos are few. I guess you either care about license minutae or you don't.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by o1y32 on Monday September 04, 2023 @05:21PM (#37385196)
You can have this rant as you please but that doesn't change the fact that Microsoft is following the what the license requires and did nothing wrong.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by uw_rob on Monday September 04, 2023 @05:29PM (#37385271)
Quality contribution to the collective knowledge of humanity by the installgentoo wiki.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by Shikadi on Monday September 04, 2023 @11:14PM (#37387427)
What if I want to use a cuck license?
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by mcpackieh on Monday September 04, 2023 @11:26PM (#37387502)
Who's stopping you?
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by teo_zero on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:49AM (#37387997)
Ok, the MIT license can backfire and damage the author. But it doesn't damage those who receive the software. So why do you resent Microsoft releasing their own software with the MIT license? They expose themselves to the risk that someone else takes their code, adds some extra feature and sells it for a profit. Microsoft acts against its own interests, so what's dishonest in this?
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by bmitc on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:31PM (#37382765)
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by rstat1 on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:52PM (#37384276)
People don't really care about facts. Only the next thing to be outraged by.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by paulryanrogers on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:30PM (#37382754)
They don't claim to be entirely open, and open isn't a regulated term regardless.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by stonogo on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:26PM (#37384000)
Being within the bounds of literal and legal correctness and acting like an asshole, it turns out, are not incompatible!
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by paulryanrogers on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:12PM (#37384494)
I don't see this as asshole behavior. They're giving away an overwhelming amount for free, which the community or a competitor can build upon at any time. This project being an example.

For those who find the closed capabilities and extensions distasteful there is opportunity to make their own.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by stonogo on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:50PM (#37384930)
I've got several decades of experience with the things Microsoft has given away for free. I consider this to be an (entirely on-brand and consistent) asshole move, part of the same EEE cycle we've been through a dozen times with a dozen product lines. It's enough to keep me off even the open-source rebuild of the product.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by djbusby on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:28PM (#37382728)
Where is the fraud?
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by wheelerof4te on Monday September 04, 2023 @02:14PM (#37383250)
Let us imagine there is one chocolate product.

The producer gives you two options to aquire that chocolate.

First option is a pile of ingredients, a plain plastic wrapper and a recipe. You are obviously required to make the chocolate yourself, but what you get is the original chocolate as advocated by the company.

Second option is a finished product that has a pretty decorated package and tastes a bit different than original chocolate. You can't quite put your finger on why, but at least you don't have to make it yourself!

Maybe "fraud" is a bit too strong word. We could go with "consumer deceit" instead.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by teo_zero on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:02AM (#37388066)
Sorry, but we face this every single day, with every single industrial food that include extra ingredients (e.g. preservatives) wrt to old granny's classic recipe and we don't call it "consumer deceit".

It would be a fraud if the label on the product you buy omitted some ingredients, but it's not the case here: Microsoft doesn't claim its binaries are the result of a vanilla make on their source!

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by jzb on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:39PM (#37384813)
The source is available. You have the right to fork it. If there’s something in the propriety release that’s harmful, you might have a case - but all Microsoft is doing here is counting on people being willing to consume the builds rather than coming together to use the source code.

Basically: Microsoft is betting that people care more about free as in beer than exercising software freedom. So far, they seem to be correct.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by croes on Monday September 04, 2023 @02:52PM (#37383635)
The part of hindering access to the market place and DRMing some extensions is the dishonest part.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by jodrellblank on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:27PM (#37384011)
Their marketplace, not the marketplace. Their extensions. Microsoft's extensions for Microsoft's editor shared in Microsoft's marketplace. And if it's dishonest, where did they say otherwise?
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by croes on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:55PM (#37384312)
Microsoft's marketplace but definitely not all extensions are theirs.

What is the reason that Codium can't access the extensions? That's like Edge wouldn't be allowed to load extensions from the Chrome store.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by Matumio on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:25PM (#37382689)
Pretty sure they use "open source" in a fair way here. Others are able to grab their sources and legally publish builds that are pretty much identical (up to the telemetry...).

What you're looking for is the "anti-features" distinctions, like the F-Droid store does it. E.g. "This app depends on other non-free apps." or "Promotes or depends entirely on a non-free network service."

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by josephcsible on Monday September 04, 2023 @02:52PM (#37383639)
> builds that are pretty much identical

Not quite. Try running Pylance on a build of your own.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by jraph on Monday September 04, 2023 @05:04PM (#37385040)
Not to mention that you are supposed not to use the official vscode extension repository if you don't use the official vscode build IIRC.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by candiddevmike on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:25PM (#37382693)
It's the open enshitification model
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by paulryanrogers on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:47PM (#37382974)
How so? If it remains consistently open core then I don't see it. They'd have to make the open part progressively worse.
Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by hedora on Monday September 04, 2023 @02:34PM (#37383433)
It is a platform play, where the platform increasingly becomes incompatible with the open core stuff.

The value of a lot of software comes from interoperability, not from the code itself.

For instance, try running AOSP and 100% open source system libraries on your android phone for a month. You will find that you cannot perform basic financial transactions, like paying for parking, or hailing an uber/lyft, fast-charge your car, attend concerts without paying an extra fee, etc, etc.

I don’t even want my phone to support any of the above crap, but I don’t get to dictate how the US economy is structured, so I have no choice but to need all that stuff to work.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by lozenge on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:12PM (#37384502)
It is progressively worse now.

What used to be useful extras are now considered essentials (see how many on this thread say they need the SSH, Docker or WSL extensions and can't use VSCodium).

Plus they're now moving Python, .NET and other specific extensions towards closed source. Yeah, you can use the open source versions, but they don't have mindshare any more so source code written with one might not navigate/display as well with the other.

Also, new features only land when MS has a closed source idea that can use it, and are locked to MS extensions only. Innovation for me, not for thee. (Copilot/Continue on Codespaces/Live Share/VS Code Web/...)

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by wheelerof4te on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:46PM (#37384886)
"Plus they're now moving Python, .NET and other specific extensions towards closed source."

They are also adding Python support to Excel, which means that the layman now has a intuitive way to use a Python function to plot graphs inside their favorite workbook.

In other words, now you no longer need those extra machine learning Python devs, when Bob the accountant can plot fancy graphs for you.

Talk about extending an open source project just to incorporate it into the Borg that is closed-source Excel.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by o1y32 on Monday September 04, 2023 @05:25PM (#37385231)
"worthy of a giant lawsuit"

Wow, that's a bold claim. Unless vscode and other products are improperly using GPL-licensed or not following license requirements otherwise -- which I am not aware of -- Microsoft is doing nothing wrong here, just like countless other commercial companies that release proprietary software based on open source projects.

Re:VSCodium – Libre Open Source Software Binaries of VS Code by juanpicardo on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @04:10AM (#37389121)
maybe you think this way because you assume the open source code is meant to be a product.

I think they do it mostly to make it easier to build an ecosystem of developers. Plenty of companies do this (Adobe is another one). They release some basic part or engine of their product so developers can work with it without compromising their business.