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Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by gambiting on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:57AM (#37359393)
That's why it's so frustrating when people point at homeless people having smartphones and snarkily say oh they aren't really poor, why would they have a smartphone if "allegedly" they can't afford food.

Well the answer is that in modern life it's literally impossible to access basic infrastructure of many places without a smartphone. It's an absolute necessity unless you want to be a nomad and live in the wilderness.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by imhoguy on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:48AM (#37359631)
Yep, that is common argument against refugees. "They come on foot with smartphones, they are not poor". They keep translator app, map, documents, priceless memories as photos, contacts with relatives - it is all they own apart of backpack of cloths. I wouldn't step onto another country's soil without that.
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by jjgreen on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:35AM (#37359921)
I don't have a phone, I don't live as a nomad in the wilderness. Well, in London, which is a bit of a wilderness.
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by gambiting on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:50AM (#37359998)
I mean, cool? Fortunately in the UK a lot of services are still available offline, but it's rapidly changing.
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by ahartmetz on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:51AM (#37360006)
Wasn't it 5-10 years ago that people said that? I think it's understood these days that smartphones are important to have (for better or for worse) and dirt cheap if you just need a smartphone, any smartphone.
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by morelisp on Saturday September 02, 2023 @06:56AM (#37360323)
It was 10 years ago they were upset poor people had refrigerators.

https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-nation/fox-cites-ownership-...

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by LinuxBender on Saturday September 02, 2023 @08:15AM (#37360823)
Is this a European thing? Or maybe a recent big city thing? I am in the US and I have no apps on my phone. I use it for texting and phone calls, nothing more. Everything I could do in the 1970's, 1990's, 2010's I can do today just fine without a phone.
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by ghaff on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:05AM (#37361146)
>Everything I could do in the 1970's, 1990's, 2010's I can do today just fine without a phone.

I think it's a few things.

- Integration of stuff like GPS that can be done on a dedicated device but are easily done better on a phone through an app.

- Ready access to information on the go. (Much of which wan't really available on the go until the 2000s.) There's a lot you could do once the smartphone came out that you didn't have access to before. But there's a lot in general I can do today that I couldn't in the 1970s/80s.

- And yes, there are apps for things like parking, public transit, rideshare, airline notifications etc. that are more generally relevant if you're traveling and in cities.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by LinuxBender on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:12AM (#37361204)
That's not so bad. I still use dedicated GPS. I suppose the downside is that a couple times a year I have to pull down map updates for it. All of the other things you mention don't sound like requirements but rather additive data or interaction but not strictly required. Nice to have's I suppose.
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by ghaff on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:36AM (#37361420)
As someone else mentioned, it's probably also true in Europe that a lot of people would see having WhatsApp as close to essential. But, in the US, SMS is pretty universal and certainly for any service you need.
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by LinuxBender on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:07AM (#37361673)
I honestly can not think of any service I need that I must use my phone with. Plenty of things use SMS 2FA but I can also talk to people, face-to-face in most cases. Probably the closest would be the IRS if I have questions because calling them means being on hold for a few hours, otherwise I have to use snail mail which I have done.
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by kefyras on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:21AM (#37362306)
> As someone else mentioned, it's probably also true in Europe that a lot of people would see having WhatsApp as close to essential.

What are you referring to? While it may be the most popular messaging app, it's not in any way, shape, or form essential. SMS is also universal, mostly unlimited, and much less weirder than it is in the US.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by ghaff on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:35AM (#37362438)
I only know what Europeans tell me. I assume different people have different takes on what is essential. And my understanding is SMS can still be pricey. (Not sure what's weird about SMS in the US? It's on my phone. I use it. It can piggyback on iMessage but that's not necessary and is transparent, bubble color notwithstanding.)
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by kefyras on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:13PM (#37362850)
>And my understanding is SMS can still be pricey.

It hasn't been for like 15+ years since pretty much every subscription has either unlimited*/or more than you can reasonably use minutes/SMS.

>Not sure what's weird about SMS in the US?

Don't you get (or used to) charged for incoming SMS?

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by ghaff on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:52PM (#37363214)
Both outgoing and incoming SMS used to have charges but (AFAIK) all the major plans now include unlimited SMS. I think the US went to mostly "free" SMS before much of Europe did which probably explains WhatsApp becoming the most common thing. (The only people I use WhatsApp with from the US are international.)
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by Ylpertnodi on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:15AM (#37361224)
>Anything Europeans do eventually parts of the US will mimic.

Examples?

Nb I have closed a bank account because I refuse[d] to install WhatsApp.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by LinuxBender on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:20AM (#37361272)
Examples?

Some cities have been installing concrete filled pipes to close of what used to be access streets into parts of cities forcing them to be "foot traffic only". This started in the EU and became trendy. Now its spreading in the US in big cities. I am not complaining. In some places this actually works out. In some places it hurts business. I guess that is a matter of city planning. Even the really old town I grew up in is doing this now in the part of town that has a bunch of small businesses to encourage more foot traffic.

Another example is roundabouts. Some of the small cities are putting these in new developments. I think it's still somewhat experimental in the US as not every small city is doing this.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by numtel on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:39PM (#37363685)
> concrete filled pipes

I believe the word you're looking for is 'bollard'.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by LinuxBender on Sunday September 03, 2023 @10:54AM (#37370913)
Fancy [1]. I wish they were that decorative. I've only seen pipes filled with concrete. I think we lack the artistic influence at least in some cities here. I suppose they are a "make-shift bollard". Redneck bollard? I'll go with redneck bollard. But you taught me a word, thank-you!

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollard

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by mitthrowaway2 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:35AM (#37362440)
> Everything I could do in the 1970's, 1990's, 2010's I can do today just fine without a phone.

In the 1990s, I remember payphones being conveniently available, but now I need to keep an eye on my battery if I'm going to phone home.

In 2010, I could log into any of my accounts with just WiFi and a password, now I need 2FA and often SMS is the only supported option. Sometimes a phone call. So in order to, say, check my bank account, I now need data and cell signal. That combination can be hard to get in a concrete building or while traveling abroad.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by bad_user on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:38AM (#37362475)
I don't know what the others are talking of, but it's good to keep in mind that Europe is very diverse, still. I'm from România and there is absolutely no bank here that requires the use of a phone app. And they also expose web interfaces. Well, except for Revolut maybe, but they aren't local and for a long time they weren't a bank either.

Although, to be honest, I find it pretty silly to avoid the use of a smartphone, or at least the use of a website. I guess some people like to waste time going to the local subsidiary and wait in line to solve even the most basic of problems, but that's not for me. Banking apps are spreading because they are more efficient.

In the future banking apps may be required. One thing that's happening in Europe are instant payments between banks. If you couple that with payments via apps (via phone number or scanning a QR code), the duopoly of Mastercard/Visa is under threat, as merchants would love to avoid their taxes.

The US is a little behind on this, maybe this is why Silicon Valley bros are constantly trying to disrupt finance.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by II2II on Saturday September 02, 2023 @08:21AM (#37360859)
In a sense, they are right. Survival is about meeting your immediate essential needs.

Of course, they are also very wrong. Opportunities to escape poverty are lost when you are only trying to fulfill your immediate needs, then there are the psychological ramifications of being vulnerable and in constant need for aid from others.

There is a reason why we have built our technological societies. It goes well beyond the personal gratification we get from gadgets or fine foods. We do it because it offers security of being and the ability to make our world a better place.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by wheelerof4te on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:10AM (#37362205)
"There is a reason why we have built our technological societies. It goes well beyond the personal gratification we get from gadgets or fine foods. We do it because it offers security of being and the ability to make our world a better place."

"We" haven't built anything. A group of very powerful people planned this locked-down, dystopian world we currently live in and worked on achieving that plan.

You and I are simply living in the world they envisioned.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by FooBarBizBazz on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:00PM (#37367080)
It's been going on since at least Enclosure, and probably since the dawn of agriculture.
Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by rex_gallorum2 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:22PM (#37362928)
I've read that they have to be reachable in order to get any kind of state benefits, and being unreachable leads to automatic disqualification - which is a big problem as homeless people often lose their phones or have them stolen.

As far as smartphones being a necessity goes, I have never owned a smartphone myself, and do not carry any phone at all most of the time. I have just gone on living like I did before smartphones, though I am aware that I am locked out of more and more things. I am beginning to resent things like parking that requires a smartphone. I don't understand the lack of back up options.

Rather than insisting on 'smartphones as a human right', I'd rather see 'opting out' as a human right.

Re:Doing Laundry on Campus Without a Phone by dredmorbius on Saturday September 02, 2023 @06:54PM (#37366186)