News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by snickerbockers on Friday August 18, 2023 @11:38AM (#37177125)
jesus christ, i dont think ive ever seen an article that beats around the bush for as long as this one does before finally getting to the point.

anyways, for those who don't have the patience, the title is misleading. it's just some old software from the 90s. It's only ancient if you're one of those people who completely rewrites their entire code base from the ground up every two years because to pad out your resume with whatever bullshit new "framework" is in vogue. Contrary to popular belief you actually can just keep using the same software indefinitely, it doesn't degrade with age, and for the most part the hardware lasts pretty long too as long as you take care of it (with a few exceptions like optical drives and SSDs).

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by justinator on Friday August 18, 2023 @11:44AM (#37177234)
There's a little more to it. If your original team retires because of old age, that's a lot of wisdom lost. Not everyone wants to learn COBOL to keep planes in the air and the IRS running, imagine needing to figure out the low level code on something millions of miles away with half the hardware broken, the battery cracked and leaking – and if the software update doesn't work, the entire mission is over?

It's altogether amazing.

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by ericbarrett on Friday August 18, 2023 @02:02PM (#37179641)
COBOL is really quite straightforward and readable. I don't think a developer who's already familiar with a modern language or two would have a hard time picking it up. The system it's operating is domain-specific knowledge anyway, and would be something a newcomer would have to learn (or be familiar with) regardless of language.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by justinator on Saturday August 19, 2023 @04:27PM (#37192802)
>I don't think a developer who's already familiar with a modern language or two would have a hard time picking it up.

You're probably correct, but it's more about if they would want to pick up a language that has no future, except maintenance of already existing systems. (see: Perl).

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by JohnFen on Friday August 18, 2023 @05:14PM (#37182202)
> Not everyone wants to learn COBOL to keep planes in the air and the IRS running

But there's excellent money in being a COBOL programmer. Some might be interested in that.

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by deepspace on Friday August 18, 2023 @06:13PM (#37182842)
The article calls software from the 90s "old". Nobody used COBOL for mission-critical software at that time. There is embedded software I wrote in the 80s and 90s still running in the field, mostly written in C.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by justinator on Saturday August 19, 2023 @04:26PM (#37192796)
I didn't wrote that COBOL was used in aerospace, but used it as an example in different industries.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday August 18, 2023 @12:01PM (#37177565)
Agreed. The older I get, the saltier I get when I read anything that refers to something from the 90s as "ancient".
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by KineticLensman on Friday August 18, 2023 @04:39PM (#37181789)
> Agreed. The older I get, the saltier I get when I read anything that refers to something from the 90s as "ancient"

As someone who started programming in 1980, I feel your pain. My oldest spreadsheet goes back to 1995.

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by peraspera on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:04PM (#37178660)
Not to mention that they confuse RAM with storage. The iPhone 14 certainly doesn't have a minimum of 128 GB of RAM.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by CoastalCoder on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:59PM (#37179588)
Depending on context and the audience, it could be fair to use "RAM" to refer to SSD storage.

SSDs are random access, just not volatile like DRAM.

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by ComputerGuru on Friday August 18, 2023 @04:07PM (#37181393)
The only context in which the technical difference between memory and disk can be glossed over is one where the audience is made of laypersons that wouldn’t understand the first thing about seekable vs random-access memory in the first place.

A tech-illiterate author/editor is the much more plausible explanation.

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by jychang on Friday August 18, 2023 @05:12PM (#37182175)
On the other hand, a modern SSD is probably faster than RAM on a spaceship from the 90s. (Don’t quote me on this, I didn’t double check).

All of a sudden I had an urge to get MS-DOS to run with a SSD as memory. Unfortunately I know DOS can’t address 1TB of memory, but the mental image of it is hilarious.

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by thamer on Saturday August 19, 2023 @10:31AM (#37189184)
I'm not sure you'll see this, but just in case: the Apollo Guidance Computer used RAM called "core rope memory", and the cycle time was 11.7 microseconds[1]. This isn't too far off from what the best SSDs can achieve for random reads at 8-10 microseconds[2], although these numbers are likely for their minimum block size of 512 bytes.

[1] https://history.nasa.gov/afj/compessay.html

[2] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/micron-finally-rolls-3d-xp...

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by cryptoz on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:50PM (#37179475)
Software does degrade with age, though. Simply the fact that vulnerabilities are found over time means that our understanding of a piece of software and how it works changes. But it's not just vulnerabilities being found, it's protocols used that may be unsupported etc. That change is a kind of a rot like people call 'bit rot' but it's a specific software rot that does happen. Systems are complicated.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by z3t4 on Friday August 18, 2023 @02:42PM (#37180214)
An example is SSL root certificates, which expire by design. Also ABI. But if you use containers or virtual machines you can basically have a program run forever.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by arter4 on Friday August 18, 2023 @03:55PM (#37181222)
You can, but you shouldn't, because at some point you should patch the vulnerabilities you inevitably find on any non-trivial piece of code after a while.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by bombcar on Friday August 18, 2023 @04:29PM (#37181661)
Certain code can run with bugs forever, even vulnerabilities, because it will never interact with anything (see the famous "the missile" bug - a counter would overflow at some point, but by then the warhead would have detonated, so who cares?).
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by JohnFen on Friday August 18, 2023 @05:17PM (#37182253)
Sure, but none of that applies to non-networked embedded systems.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by kwhitefoot on Friday August 18, 2023 @04:00PM (#37181297)
Most software used not to be connected to the outside world. It wasn't vulnerable at all unless the attacker already had control of the host.

In the thirty years I spent developing software I spent hardly any time on anything that was accessible through the network and I'm confident that I'm not the only one. The embedded control software that I wrote for 6502s would still work today and would be completely invulnerable to attacks other than from someone standing right in front of the machine pushing buttons.

Of course now that everything has to be networked so that your fridge can advertise special offers to you the situation is changing for the worse.

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by deterministic on Monday August 21, 2023 @05:34AM (#37207192)
Brand new software made yesterday is full of bugs and will kill or maim you if you try to use it for safety critical systems. I trust 10+ years old code that has been proven in combat. Not crappy new code written by some arrogant young “Ninja” who has no clue on how little he/she/it knows.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by JohnFen on Friday August 18, 2023 @05:13PM (#37182183)
> it's just some old software from the 90s.

What nonsense. the 90s is recent, not ancient.

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by mgsouth on Friday August 18, 2023 @07:54PM (#37183753)
<gently>You know those advertisements AARP keeps sending? Much as I deny it, they aren't some terrible mistake.

The 90s were 30 years ago. Many a "Senior Software Engineer" hadn't even been born yet. Yeah, to them the 90s is ancient tech. Cut 'em some slack; they're just youngsters who don't really understand the world yet. It's the weekend, so grab your favorite beverage, kick back, and tune out to some ancient classical music--like the Beatles.

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by dang on Friday August 18, 2023 @05:19PM (#37182275)
Ok, I've taken the ancient technology out and replaced it with old software in the title above. Thanks!
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by weinzierl on Friday August 18, 2023 @06:02PM (#37182742)
The article is bad but the premise is not wrong. The things that fly and a lot of the things that stay on the ground are analyzed with NASTRAN whose solver kernel dates back to 1964. At its heart it is still the old FORTRAN code because reproducibility is king.
Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by mosselman on Friday August 18, 2023 @07:02PM (#37183256)
I find one of the subtitles for one of the images strangely worded too:

“The Voyager space missions were maintained by technology that would today be artefacts in a museum”

The technology either is or isn’t in a museum right now. Why say “would today be”. If it is you can say “technology that by now you can see in a museum” and if it isn’t you could say “expect to be in a museum”.

Re:The ancient technology keeping space missions alive by wuming2 on Friday August 18, 2023 @08:56PM (#37184268)
It may be true with embedded applications or with Windows. Not on a Mac.