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Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by foooorsyth on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:21PM (#37167406)
> Now, if only they had something for NEETs over job corps's age limit....

A bit ironic that the cut off is 24 and the rough age of full brain maturity is 25 (and loss of parental insurance is 26). So the young adults that had poor/no guidance or made poor decisions in youth don’t get this opportunity once they get their head on straight and realize they need to acquire some skills (pretty common character arc for young men, at least in my circles).

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by jvanderbot on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:28PM (#37167499)
After 24 you qualify for significantly more financial aid for traditional or tech schools, because you are considered a "non traditional student".

Source: used this to get my PhD coming from factory work. Regret nothing.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by da02 on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:32PM (#37167582)
Can you elaborate what financial aid you qualified for after 24? How did you discover it? Word-of-mouth or Google searches?
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by the_only_law on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:39PM (#37167694)
Not sure if this is what they meant, but the believe the financial aid system considers you to be a “dependent” if you’re under 24 period. Regardless of your tax filing status or anything else save for a few extreme circumstances.

This means, that until 24, any aid you get is calculated based in your parents’ income + your income. Even if you’ve been fully independent since 18. Combined with the laughable EFC calculations, this often means less aid available.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by no_wizard on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:45PM (#37167789)
IIRC there are two exceptions to FAFSA being considered dependent if you're under 24

One is if you are an emancipated adult. The other being if you're married.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by monocasa on Thursday August 17, 2023 @05:11PM (#37168139)
The emancipated one has been added too. I ran into issues in the 2000s being emancipated but with FAFSA still looking at my parent's incomes.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by syedkarim on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:55PM (#37167928)
I believe military service also qualifies a student as being financially independent.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by goodkittie396 on Thursday August 17, 2023 @06:02PM (#37168784)
You are so right about that. Hooah! Sidenote: If you have gone to boot camp, then the college can waive all the fitness class requirements. First time go!
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by the_only_law on Thursday August 17, 2023 @06:09PM (#37168866)
Do colleges usually have fitness class requirements? I’ve never seen that in any GenEd section of a degree program?
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by alephnerd on Thursday August 17, 2023 @06:35PM (#37169131)
Columbia does if you're in the College (aka 90% of students)
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by toast0 on Thursday August 17, 2023 @11:26PM (#37171120)
My california community college did, and I believe it's a requirement for UC and CSU as well. I don't think the private engineering school I transfered to did; because I don't recall anyone complaining about it.

But at least at community college there were many options. Table tennis once a week for one semester wasn't a huge burden.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by erikerikson on Thursday August 17, 2023 @06:38PM (#37169161)
Yes, military service emancipates you for FAFSA purposes.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by mjn on Thursday August 17, 2023 @09:57PM (#37170647)
There are a few others as well. As of the 2023-2024 cycle, there are 13 ways to be considered independent (any one of them suffices), according to the official list [1]. To summarize them here:

1. Born before Jan 1, 2000; 2. Married; 3. Will be attending grad school [2]; 4. Active-duty U.S. military; 5. U.S. military veteran; 6. Have dependent children; 7. Have live-in dependents other than children; 8. Both parents deceased and/or were a foster child or a ward of the court after age 13; 9. Current or former emancipated minor; 10. Legal guardian is someone other than parent or stepparent; 11,12,13. Homeless or at-risk-of-homelessness within the past year (three different routes of determination).

[1] https://studentaid.gov/2324/help/need-parent-info

[2] Graduate students in the U.S. generally don't get the kind of need-based financial aid that undergrads do, though, so this one is often not very helpful.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by slt2021 on Thursday August 17, 2023 @06:23PM (#37169017)
emancipated route is how millionaire's kids get in and get financial aid
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by pacija on Thursday August 17, 2023 @07:28PM (#37169669)
In my early twenties, after dropping out of faculty but before I started working, I was often literally hungry while my parents were not really millionaires, more like quite well-off. I guess they thought keeping fridge constantly empty will make me go out and look for work (I did not until 26, just traveled, couchsurfed and partied around). Ironically, I often ate at my best friend's whose parents were on the edge of poverty, but supported him (and me) with all of little they had.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by CodeSgt on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:48PM (#37170920)
I wouldn’t share that with people. It just makes you sound like you were a privileged entitled bum that took advantage of your less privileged friends hospitality.

Because that’s essentially what you were. Hopefully no longer.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by pacija on Friday August 18, 2023 @05:41AM (#37173297)
Perhaps. I see it differnetly. I am privileged now with my nice job, back in the day I was just a kid who was trying to become independent adult without proper guidance and support from parents. What I wanted to say is that young adults, regardless of their parent's social and financial status, need guidance and support in order to become independent and productive members of society. I got an impression that some people think that kids whose parents are well-off or rich always get it from their parents, so they are not entitled to get it from other sources (like scholarship, discounted housing, public transit, food, cultural institutions tickets for students etc.). That is not the case.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by ilikecakeandpie on Friday August 18, 2023 @08:46AM (#37174903)
I hope you give back or at least have done something nice for those folks who fed you so much
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by CodeSgt on Friday August 18, 2023 @09:27AM (#37175309)
The fact that you felt the freedom to part and fuck off until 26 speaks to a degree of privilege and freedom that your safety net of parental wealth provided you that you don’t even seem aware of.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by nhod on Friday August 18, 2023 @05:43AM (#37173325)
It’s also how middle-class kids whose parents don’t support them in any way get financial aid.

I understand why the system is the way that it is — it covers probably 95% of cases correctly — but for those of us who were essentially on our own after 18, it’s terribly unjust.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by zengargoyle on Thursday August 17, 2023 @09:20PM (#37170420)
I married my best friend of several years so she could get financial aid. Her financial aid counselor told her about the lengthy emancipation legal process or marriage. She came over one night with a "I have a huge favor to ask of you" and about a week later we were married.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by nyolfen on Thursday August 17, 2023 @09:41PM (#37170556)
did you stay married?
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by zengargoyle on Saturday August 19, 2023 @07:17AM (#37187616)
Technically, yes for about seven years. We were introduced by a mutual friend because we were both staying on campus over the Christmas holiday. We hooked up on Christmas Eve and dropped some acid and had a fun few days. We were both the oddly precocious types who graduated high school at 16/17. We were both sorta slutty. We just became best of friends for the next few years (we both went our own separate ways romantically, we would eventually even go out and hook up with each others roommates...) We went out and got tattoos together on her 18th birthday. It was a couple of years later that we got married (I like to pontificate that we got married by the justice of the peace in the Blade Runner building. It was justice of the peace and somewhere in an old downtown LA building, no frills). She had her mothers or grandmothers ring or such, mine was a Peace symbol ring from a gumball machine with the Peace symbol torn off.... It turned my finger green unless coated with clear nail polish. About six months later I left university and moved halfway across the country. It was always interesting to eventually tell girlfriends and such that "by the way, technically I'm married". Around seven years later I ran into another mutual friend who told me that she had been looking for me to sign papers and such and couldn't find me. We did meet up again a few years later and nothing came up, she finally settled down and got really married. I assume she got a rubber stamp divorce for abandonment or even non-consummation (almost, but we were both so "too drunk to fuck" on Extacy that we gave up and just went back to the party). She's still a fond memory of a bestest friend for years, we could like read each other's minds, almost too dangerous to be serious.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by actionfromafar on Friday August 18, 2023 @04:58AM (#37172986)
I would watch this movie! Would probably be better than “the Pursuit of happiness”
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by midasuni on Friday August 18, 2023 @05:13AM (#37173092)
I’m surprised it’s not counted as fraud
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by IggleSniggle on Friday August 18, 2023 @07:58AM (#37174457)
It beat the fraud of getting married for the sole purpose of getting into someone's pants!
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by afthonos on Friday August 18, 2023 @08:09AM (#37174538)
The right way to think of marriage for government purposes is a contract. If someone has entered in this contract, they get certain benefits. If the benefits are properly designed, they are valid only for the duration of the contract. As long as both people were abiding by the terms of the contract, it’s not fraud.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by IggleSniggle on Friday August 18, 2023 @08:08AM (#37174527)
My spouse and I got married "early" in the court system for a similar reason, in order to qualify for in-state tuition. However, we then had a proper wedding in front of our family and community a few months later, so I'm not sure it would really matter to the policy makers. Definitely helped drive home for us, though: there are three different marriages in a marriage:

There is a legal contract, that is important to people you have never met and will never meet, and, if things are going right, is never at all relevant to your actual marriage in any way except for how it lets you navigate government policy.

There is a social contract, that is important to everyone who acknowledges you as a couple (and also people who have never business seeing you this way).

And there is your actual relationship, which may be enhanced or degraded by the previous two elements, but is somewhat oblique to both.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by jvanderbot on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:43PM (#37167756)
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by experimental123 on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:34PM (#37167608)
That's very useful information. How did you go about finding resources for non-traditional students?
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by jvanderbot on Thursday August 17, 2023 @05:54PM (#37168700)
FAFSA is 90% of job. Then apply for scholarships. Never take private loans. Work as much as you can to borrow low, but do what you need to do to get through. Choose a major that will make you money.

In my time, factors like age mattered as much as other factors that separated you from "the usual". Nowadays that may not be the case.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by colechristensen on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:28PM (#37167500)
I really wish people would stop with the “brain maturity” age thing.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by FredPret on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:55PM (#37167937)
Is it your impression that the brain isn't an organ that develops from birth and reaches maturity at some point?
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by colechristensen on Thursday August 17, 2023 @05:12PM (#37168160)
No, my issue is that people are implicitly or more often explicitly saying that folks shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for themselves or be responsible for their actions until they're 25. The progressive infantilization of people troubles me. That you have to spend a third of your life in this state is ridiculous. It is also self-fulfilling. People only stop acting like children when you stop treating them like children.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by dtjb on Thursday August 17, 2023 @05:37PM (#37168479)
Pithy quotes don't drive policy, science does. We can preach tough love as much as we want but it doesn't change the physical reality of adolescent brain morphometry.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 18, 2023 @12:45AM (#37171480)
Science doesn't say to treat them like children.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by foooorsyth on Thursday August 17, 2023 @05:36PM (#37168461)
I agree with your general position. Not a fan of babying people either. Still, I know a lot of people (mostly young men with minimal parental guidance) who were total idiots up to about 25 that could’ve benefited from a program like this. I much prefer stuff like this (total-immersion skill-creation programs) to EBT and section 8. I don’t see what benefit there is to the state to have an age cutoff. Just take people who want to be self sufficient
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by theptip on Thursday August 17, 2023 @05:23PM (#37168302)
Agreed with the general thrust here; I read something recently from a scientist in the field that the 25 number is completely made up. It doesn’t come from any objective metric.

That said the idea that you do most of your growing up before 25, but still do some of it 18-24 should not be controversial. I wouldn’t use that observation to deny education/apprenticeship benefits from anyone though.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by SamoyedFurFluff on Thursday August 17, 2023 @05:22PM (#37168289)
In my experience people will act like children regardless of your own behavior…
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by downWidOutaFite on Thursday August 17, 2023 @06:00PM (#37168754)
> The progressive infantilization of people troubles me

Since you're making this political I'd like to point out that it is conservatives that have started a movement to repeal the 26th amendment and raise the voting age.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by ozzmotik on Thursday August 17, 2023 @06:56PM (#37169351)
i believe you've misinterpreted the meaning of the word progressive here to refer to political progressives, rather than simply just "gradual/ongoing" which is what the use of it here suggests to me personally
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by colechristensen on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:00PM (#37170657)
I’m sorry my intent was not political though I understand the confusion.

Substitute “progressive” for “ever increasing” to retain mostly the same meaning intended.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by bee_rider on Thursday August 17, 2023 @11:25PM (#37171115)
We shouldn’t treat people like children into their 24’s, but we should generally be more forgiving—reduce punishments for victimless crimes, make it easier to get out of debt, better social safety net.

There isn’t some magic age where we suddenly stop screwing up all the time.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by deprecative on Friday August 18, 2023 @12:05AM (#37171289)
If anything, it's a correction and we'll get to where we need to be eventually. We went from kids being coal miners to crippling entire generations with debt that they can't get out of with lifespans that are shrinking.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by TheCoelacanth on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:17AM (#37171602)
I disagree with your implication the age of adulthood is steadily rising.

In reality, it's just fluctuating. The US's age of majority was 21 until the need for soldiers in WWII drove it to be lowered.

Other cultures have gone even higher.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by codebolt on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:55AM (#37171781)
25 is around the age when you start seeing the consequences of the bad choices you've made during adolescence.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by q7xvh97o2pDhNrh on Friday August 18, 2023 @02:07AM (#37171856)
Plenty of people manage to make it to much later in life without connecting those dots for themselves.

About the most one could say about 25 is that it's when people's paths start to radically diverge, even amongst the group of people that were previously lumped together as "high achievers." So perhaps the subset of that group who are relatively low-performing — and yet, somehow, high in self-awareness — will wake up and start making changes at 25.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by gbear605 on Thursday August 17, 2023 @06:13PM (#37168902)
The age 25 thing is basically a myth. Different brain processes do continue developing into adulthood, but many finish developing younger while others never finish developing.

https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/brain-development-25-ye...

> When we spoke, I told Steinberg his work had been referenced in this way. “Oh no,” he said, laughing. I then asked whether he had insights about where the figure 25 came from, and he said roughly the same thing as Cohen: There’s consensus among neuroscientists that brain development continues into the 20s, but there’s far from any consensus about any specific age that defines the boundary between adolescence and adulthood. “I honestly don’t know why people picked 25,” he said. “It’s a nice-sounding number? It’s divisible by five?”

> Kate Mills, a developmental neuroscientist at the University of Oregon, was equally puzzled. “This is funny to me—I don’t know why 25,” Mills said. “We’re still not there with research to really say the brain is mature at 25, because we still don’t have a good indication of what maturity even looks like.”

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by sramam on Thursday August 17, 2023 @09:34PM (#37170506)
Even if you are age eligible, the "qualifications":

> You may NOT be eligible for Job Corps if you:

> - Use drugs illegally under federal law

> - Exhibit behavioral problems that could prevent you or others from success in Job Corps

> - Have certain criminal convictions or require court supervision

If you have done any of these before 24, chances are really high that you were otherwise disadvantaged in life. And it's not going to get much easier.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by l33t7332273 on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:05PM (#37170687)
I don’t think using drugs under age 24 generally means there is a really high chance that you were disadvantaged in life
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by sramam on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:41PM (#37179323)
That's a good point. In a general sense, I agree with you.

I made the comment in the context of:

If you need a program like this between 16-24 AND you are doing drugs, it's much more likely than not that disadvantages have been heaped upon your life.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by iancmceachern on Thursday August 17, 2023 @11:29PM (#37171134)
By your math half of all people are disadvantaged. Half of all teens report using drugs at least once.

https://www.caron.org/addiction-101/teens-young-adults/stati...

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by thayne on Thursday August 17, 2023 @11:56PM (#37171241)
There is a difference between "has used a drug at some point in your life" and "are actively using drugs".
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by iancmceachern on Friday August 18, 2023 @12:42AM (#37171468)
The phrase "are actively using drugs" does not appear in your parent comment.

I agree there is a difference between those 2 statements. But you never made the quoted statement.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by thayne on Friday August 18, 2023 @02:20AM (#37171944)
I paraphrased. To use the exact quotes:

There is a difference between having used drugs "at least once" and "use drugs illegaly" (note the present tense).

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by iancmceachern on Friday August 18, 2023 @03:29PM (#37180856)
Correct, and that difference is meaningless and applies to a large swath of the general population, which you are quickly and callously dismissing as less than you.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by thayne on Saturday August 19, 2023 @12:19AM (#37185467)
> that difference is meaningless

How so? If you tried drugs once years ago you meet this requirement for this program. If you are an addict taking drugs daily, you will probably fail the drug tests that I assume they use for this qualification and won't qualify. Of course there is a whole spectrum between thos, but saying half the population has taken drugs at least once is very much not the same thing as saying half the population is regularly using drug.

And the qualification is worse for people who are heavily dependent on drugs, and thus can't easily give it up while going through the program.

> which you are quickly and callously dismissing as less than you

When did I ever suggest they are less than me? I was simply pointing out that saying that half of teens have tried drugs does not imply that half of them would be ineligible for this program due to drug use. In fact the same cited article states 1 in 8 have used drugs in the last year, which is probably closer to an upper bound on who would be disqualified for Job Corps due to drug use.

To be clear, I am opposed to this requirement, because it is a barrier to people who need it most.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by nradov on Friday August 18, 2023 @12:47AM (#37171486)
That thing about full brain maturity at 25 is a myth.

https://www.iflscience.com/does-the-brain-really-mature-at-t...

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by aidenn0 on Friday August 18, 2023 @02:35AM (#37172022)
Linked article doesn't fully support the "myth" so much as an overstatement of the evidence; there is clear evidence that certain parts of the brain reach stop growing in volume around that age (earlier for women). There isn't great evidence linking that to anything behavioral though.
Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by brightlancer on Friday August 18, 2023 @04:20AM (#37172722)
Individuals develop at different rates and also _start_ at different points: a child born a month early will always be a month behind, though this is far less significant at 10yo than 10mo, and that month gets lost over time in the natural variation of development.

Also, the idea that girls mature faster than boys is a much more a myth; girls mature _physically_ faster than boys but not psychologically.

> There isn't great evidence linking that to anything behavioral though.

Ish. There are behavioral patterns which run parallel to it, most obvious with young male aggression which plateaus in the late 20s before trending down.

Re:JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living... by MichaelZuo on Friday August 18, 2023 @08:53AM (#37174965)
The volume of certain parts of the brain is physical?