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Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by bagacrap on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @11:25AM (#37050401)
Why can't you learn the next tool?

Everyone in a tech field has to retain the ability to learn new things over time. AI might not take our jobs but it will likely change them. I guess it sucks if you have a fear of learning. Admittedly, at first learning a new thing can be kind of uncomfortable, like getting into a cold swimming pool. But once you get over the initial shock and start moving around, it's not so bad.

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by qbasic_forever on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @11:37AM (#37050628)
Because for this work it's cheaper for the company to hire a new person with a lower starting wage vs. keep employing and paying higher wages to more experienced workers.

It's not the worker's fault they can't learn the new tool (they absolutely can learn it). It's capitalism's fault for valuing workers only for the cost of their labor and nothing else.

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by robertlagrant on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @01:03PM (#37052187)
> It's capitalism's fault for valuing workers only for the cost of their labor and nothing else.

Sigh. The value you're talking about here is the cost of their labour. This is like a business owner saying that employees should value their jobs differently to their salary.

You're right in the sense that capitalism is fundamentally "people make agreements and decisions within what's available to them" but what's the actual issue you want capitalism to solve, that doesn't create one of the massive downsides that any of capitalism's former rivals has?

E.g. monarchy can reward loyalty, but then so can capitalism. Monarchy can just also tell you to go die on a field if you don't kill the other king's people.

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by vkou on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @01:14PM (#37052375)
> Monarchy can just also tell you to go die on a field if you don't kill the other king's people.

What makes you think that capitalism won't do the same to you? Capitalist[1] societies engage in pointless, bloody wars all the time.

[1] And communist, and other -ist.

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by robertlagrant on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @04:36AM (#37060064)
The society isn't capitalist. The economy is capitalist.

Unlike monarchy/communism/fuedalism etc where power and organisation are by necessity mostly centralised, capitalism can (and wants to) be divorced from power. Constant realigning it with power (e.g. regulatory capture) is what corrupts it.

The sort of (limited) power capitalism creates is by creating value in some way: labour, capital, contacts, resources. It's not derived from strength, unlike the other methods.

Of course a government, that is fundamentally derived from strength, and must be, can still fight wars. It can do it much better in fact because its economy was organised by the most efficient manner anyone's ever discovered, and so there's a surplus to tax.

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by gitrog on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @07:17AM (#37061037)
Capitalism doesn't have desires outside of those of the people who participate in it that hold the most power. The desire of those people is more power. Not resource allocation as an ends, but as a means to more profit.

It has been shown time and time again that the majority of the powerful players in a Capitalist economy inherited their wealth or opportunities.

Capitalism can only function in an economy if a government allows it by setting up the necessary structures and allowing private property ownership.

Society can certainly be Capitalist by extension of the economy being Capitalist due to policies and strucutes set up by goverments.

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by walleeee on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @01:58PM (#37052997)
> what's the actual issue you want capitalism to solve

Seeing as it's more or less the de facto world order it should ideally solve global alignment for the long term wellbeing of Earth-borne life

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by robertlagrant on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @03:05AM (#37059532)
The difference is capitalism is bottom up. It has no top-downness, and would rather individual people and groups of people made agreements between themselves. That's why it can never usefully be described as a "world order".

That doesn't align well with efficiency or top-down world political agreements. But it has lifted more people out of poverty faster than any other system in history.

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by walleeee on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @12:33PM (#37065153)
The absence of global coherence does not mean it cannot be described as a world order, it just means it's not optimizing for long term success. If we'd like to continue lifting people out of poverty and give future life a fighting chance, we ought to find a coherent system.
Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by vsareto on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @11:34AM (#37050577)
Continuous reskilling for bad pay sucks, especially when you can’t reap from your investment of being a specialist for the first tool. Or the old tool is changed for bad reasons.
Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by jjoonathan on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @12:15PM (#37051335)
Because the business needs you to keep putting out fires in the old tool while your younger, cheaper replacement trains on the new tool!
Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by jayd16 on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @12:55PM (#37052033)
Sounds like a union could help but I guess the odds of that are slim.
Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by CamperBob2 on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @01:03PM (#37052183)
Is there anything a union can't help with, in your estimation?
Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by jjoonathan on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @01:14PM (#37052373)
Plenty. U**ons solve one problem only: when value created is high but leverage (=pay) is low.

The fact that this problem pops up all over the damn place should tell you something about our relationship to u**ons.

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by red-iron-pine on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @01:45PM (#37052823)
it's not just low pay.

children used to work 10 hours a day and lose hands in machinery. hell, kids are dying in factories now, and the rules just keep getting rolled back further.

miners get black lung or asbestos exposure.

dudes boiled alive in machinery that didn't have fail safes.

company towns that only paid in scrip and then charged you 3x the price of regular goods.

people had to fight and die for an 8 hour workday.

the bourgeoisie programmer types who've never had to work actually dangerous jobs tend to forget just how incredibly brutal working conditions used to be.

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by pianoben on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @03:33PM (#37054338)
Seriously! People forget that bosses responded to unionization with actual violent assault, including sending literal bombers against striking miners (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain). Children get to go to school and not work because Unions fought. We have a weekend because Unions fought. We have an eight-hour workday because Unions fought.
Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by CamperBob2 on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @03:48PM (#37054543)
We have laws to address those things now. You wouldn't believe the paperwork when someone gets boiled alive at work nowadays.
Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by jayd16 on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @02:05PM (#37053119)
Of course they don't help everything but setting up a seniority system is a common and well tread union policy and solves the stated problem.
Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by Spooky23 on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @03:23PM (#37054195)
Big companies with standardized jobs are great for unionization. Union bureaucracy is a great answer to corporate or government bureaucracy.

Basically, a big, inflexible place is a good unionization candidate. A smaller, nimble org is a lousy place for a union.

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by Terr_ on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @01:32PM (#37052649)
"What happens when we need more workers who know the new tool? Shouldn't we invest in training?"

"No, we'll hire them away from our competitors. Let one of them invest in training."

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by asow92 on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @02:27PM (#37053439)
Sounds like the old tool maintainer isn't leveraging their scarcity power. If their skills are in high demand and short supply, and they can't be replaced, then shouldn't they make things take longer as they learn new tool?

Of course this accelerates the business’s desire to adopt the new tool sooner, so they best hurry!

Re:How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? by RC_ITR on Tuesday August 08, 2023 @03:52PM (#37054587)
Old tool made one wavelength of light for lithography using a specific laser you are an expert in.

New tool makes a different wavelength of light by shooting high energy beams at molten tin and all your PhD research isn't relevant to that.

It's not like moving from Adobe to Figma, it's like moving from physics to chemistry.