I recently found out that all of Russia Today is banned and blocked throughout the EU, and whilst I appreciate it’s pure propaganda, I don’t appreciate being told what I can and cannot read/watch/hear.
It’s entirely against everything I was told to believe we stood for, and I find it deeply offensive ans disturbing.
When I open it incognito I am redirected to a Ziggo.nl page saying:
Deze website is geblokkeerd
Europese sancties
De Raad van Europa heeft besloten dat de websites van RT (voorheen Russia Today) en Sputnik News niet meer mogen worden doorgegeven. De website die je probeert te bezoeken, valt onder deze Europese sanctie.
Vodafone
Ziggo is verplicht de sanctie uit te voeren en heeft de website geblokkeerd.
My DNS resolvers are:
2001:730:3e42:1000::53
2001:b88:1002::10
2001:b88:1202::10
84.116.46.23
84.116.46.22That's shocking.
How can someone decide for themselves that they agree something is bad, if they aren't allowed to see it, or even know it exists?
I don't think there is any philosophical principle that resloves to "and therefor we should commit ignorance"
FWIW we preemptively censor things all the time. Information is classified, we don't let you post plans to build nuclear or biological weapons, etc. And to broaden a little, we also have lots of speech restrictions and compulsions. Fraud is against the law and that's largely speech. Inciting imminent lawless action isn't allowed. We require nutrition facts on products, we require doctors to say things before performing abortions, we compel testimony, etc. I personally wouldn't like it if you posted my address and when I'm likely to be away.
Speech is complicated, it's powerful, fundamental, and there are a lot of competing interests and principles.
No one in Germany studies the history of Nazis and how they came to be?
So who said anything about supporting?
That was my whole original point, that if something is bad, it's if anything even more important not to censor information about it, not so thoroughly that it is actually removed from active and specific searches at least.
That absolutely includes things that advocate, because those very statements are the bad thing that needs to be seen to be believed and understood.
You can't just tell some kid who wasn't there "He rose to power and killed millions of Jews." It makes no sense and teaches no lesson. You have to show the crowd-pleasing speeches and other pro-nazi propaganda to show how attractive a bad thing can sound, to show how totally good and normal people just like you can end up cooperating with something wrong, to study and understand that aspect of the badness.
Some people will study that so they can then do it, but I don't see how that changes anything because we're right back to ignorance is no answer. Making everyone else ignorant is even worse. It creates even more victims than the one actually doing something bad.
They do. You just can't deny the holocaust, spread anti-semitism, etc. [0]
My point, which I admittedly obscured, is that while there are things we censor and compel (which we mostly agree on), there are weirdly some things we don't censor that we also mostly agree on.
Anti-semitism is a good example. There's no value in talking about it. Anti-semitic hate groups use the shield of freedom of speech to spread their lies and recruit members. Proponents will spam forums, WhatsApp groups, social media, etc in what is effectively a DDoS on fact checkers. The thing that fixes anti-semitism isn't letting them say whatever they want wherever they want, it's a Wikipedia page on anti-semitism and a ban everywhere else.
It's also worth saying that while we're having a relatively academic debate, Jewish people, Black people, trans people, etc get to wade through a morass of hate on the internet which every so often leads to a mass murder. What's the value of that?
[0]: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/germanys-laws-ant...
Is and entirely different thing than
"You can't see this thing"
I guess people are deciding that linking is saying rather than merely referencing.
Even if so, it just means that the need to be able to reference is more important than the need to hide a few of the unwanted things that manage to get said. Anything else is simply not sane, as in, not functional. Even if everyone agrees that some messages are offensive and some knowledge is undesired, that doesn't justify breaking the very concept of communication and knowledge.
> Is and entirely different thing than
> "You can't see this thing"
I think you're arguing against a point no one is making, not even TFA. TFA is basically about piracy. Maybe you could stretch it into a broader "what can I as a private entity host on my platform/DNS" question, but this is about a music piracy site. We're not talking about fundamental history of humanity here, it's Foo Fighters and Oak Ridge Boys all the way down. And it's worth saying you are free to buy (most of) this music! It's not like it's being disappeared into a memory hole. The analog here would be like, I don't even know, the Hitler estate suing DNS providers for resolving the hostname of a site that hosted Adolf's speeches for free, when they sold them on CD for $25 each. I'm pretty good at bullshitting, but even I can't make the leap from that to censorship.
Further, private platforms have no obligation whatsoever to let you say whatever you want on them, and in fact have obligations to report certain speech to the cops (you can imagine the kinds of speech we're talking about here, i.e. crimes). But also I can run a forum and ban people and annihilate their posts with impunity as long as I don't do it because of their "race, color, religion, or national origin", [0] and this is assuming forums qualify as public accommodations, which isn't currently clear (it's at least possible if not likely my forum would be classified as a private club). Should I do so I will have violated none of their rights, and will have in no way censored them, no matter how many people use my forum, because I'm not a government and they're free to use other forums or even run their own. This also applies to more concrete things like restaurants: I'm free to run a restaurant and ban neo-Nazis, but I can't ban Catholics. It's worth saying I'm not wild about this law. I think it would better if it were more carefully delineated along the lines of ascribed (sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, nationality) vs. achieved (profession, political ideology, religion) statuses, and SCOTUS is chipping away at it like they do, but it's what we've got.
Finally, I just don't think what you're worried about happening is happening. You can reference and learn about anti-semitism on Twitter [1] (kind of, insofar as you can learn about anything there). You just can't go around spouting actual anti-semitic stuff like spamming "14 Words" or trying to argue that Oskar Dirlewanger was just misunderstood. There's a difference! There's no confusion! You can also go to ADL's website to learn about these things; in fact that's what I did.
Your argument seems to be that unless we let the worst, most vile speech infest our social networks, we'll at best be ignorant of history and at worst break some fundamental human law of knowledge. But there are other ways to learn about history that don't empower white nationalists (etc.). I mean, we knew about this stuff before Twitter; I think we'll be fine.
[0]: https://www.justice.gov/crt/title-ii-civil-rights-act-public...
Governments are entrusted with great power. Enough power to decide an entire class of people no longer deserve to live. Without checks and balances that hold the people we put in government accountable, that power will be abused.
“It should be easy to handle some censorship” is where your point went off the rails.
When you trust your government with the power to control the flow of information, you trust them with the power to hide their own actions from you - including genocide. You trust them to censor people who vocally oppose an unjust war. You trust them to censor people who report on broken checks and balances. You trust them to censor people who question their accumulation of power.
History doesn’t care if you meant well. Our descendants who inherit these political systems won’t care if you meant well. They’ll remember the results of the system you build.
I think this is as false dilemma - no one's advocating that any institution or system that can regulate the flow of known bad information can operate without any constraints, oversight, etc.
If we assume any exercise of power will ALWAYS be misused under any circumstance, then taken to the extreme we literally shouldn't let people exercise under the notion that they can and will use physical force to coerce people. So we can't run on that assumption; sometimes governments can use power over information to do good things, like prevent the spread of pro-genocide propaganda.
We need to have a far more nuanced discussion about whether or not THIS instance of censorship is more positive or more negative.
> prevent the spread of pro-genocide propaganda
This is a Motte and Bailey.
Your introduction advocates for: regulating the spread of known bad information.
In your second to last paragraph you substitute it with: prevent the spread of pro-genocide propaganda
I’ll engage with your second point only if you yield that the _only_ form of information that is acceptable for a government to censor is speech that is directly and explicitly calling for genocide.
Otherwise we are talking about the “known bad information” from your first paragraph.
Does “bad” mean false? Or just malicious? Who decides it’s bad? How does it become “known.”
As a citizen, are you allowed to challenge the classification of “bad” or does challenging the classification of “bad” itself count as “bad information?”
What protections are there for keeping inconvenient truths about our government from being classified as “bad information?”
> no one's advocating that any institution or system that can regulate the flow of known bad information can operate without any constraints, oversight, etc.
I’m suggesting that’s exactly what people are advocating for. They may not know it. They may mean well.
No it isn't. The motte and bailey tactic is when you advocate for a very broad position, then retreat to something more defensible. I've stated that the broad statement (that all censorship is bad) is false, so as a result we need to have a more nuanced discussion about when it's appropriate to exercise this power and how we can de-fang potential abuses of it. Your position regarding all censorship being bad is your bailey, which quite frankly, I've razed to the ground. Your motte is the position that censorship can be used by a government to manipulate their citizenry, which is true, but significantly more limited in application than the original concept that all censorship is antisocial.
>I’ll engage with your second point only if you yield that the _only_ form of information that is acceptable for a government to censor is speech that is directly and explicitly calling for genocide.
I mean, I wouldn't concede that because I can think of a ton of situations in which banning speech is appropriate. We can start with the classic 'fire in a crowded theater', we can discuss automated scam-driven robocalls, we can look at email spam filter, content moderation on websites, restrictions on the spread of child pornography, etc. What about speech designed to disenfranchise people of their right to vote by lying about where they're supposed to vote? What about financial fraud or any form of censurable misrepresentation?
From a tech perspective, should you be able to DDOS domains without authorization? Does your
>therwise we are talking about the “known bad information” from your first paragraph.
>Does “bad” mean false? Or just malicious? Who decides it’s bad? How does it become “known.”
>As a citizen, are you allowed to challenge the classification of “bad” or does challenging the classification of “bad” itself count as “bad information?”
Great questions. This is where real debates about how legislation and law intersect with censorship occur. Different jurisdictions have different approaches, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. None are perfect, but if you're actually interested in this topic, you can look up review articles looking at comparative law on the subject and I think you'll find a lot of substantive meat to chew.
Even the United States, which values freedom of speech incredibly highly in it's hierarchy of rights have a very large panoply of situations in which speech is restricted.
>I’m suggesting that’s exactly what people are advocating for.
Yes, that's a strawman, which is why people who actually work on the issue don't take the argument seriously. It's the equivalent of someone outside tech saying 'you can't host a website because you can get DDOSed' then being mystified that the internet is still chugging along. The threat is real, but the value of taking action is important, and finding out how to mitigate the threat in real world is where the actual complexity is; identifying a threat everyone knows exists isn't.
Anyways, this is boring. It's the same 101 level discussion every time on this topic and it really gets tiresome.
Holmes argued, "the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent."
It’s a great example of how governments abuse these powers to silence inconvenient speech.
From child pornography to robocalls, I’d suggest that you don’t need “speech” to be a crime - though it’d be convenient to many pro-censorship arguments if it were.
The production of pornography without consent is illegal and is not speech. The production and possession of child pornography is a crime. Transmission requires both, which are already crimes. Possession with intent to distribute and the distribution of this content are already crimes.
You don’t need a carve out for sending these over TCP/IP conflating it with speech any more than you need a carve out for sending the photos through the U.S. postal service. It was a crime before you sent the photos, still a crime after. Free speech doesn’t wash the crime away.
The very substance of your original argument is that the power to restrict these things is inherently dangerous, yet you don't seem to apply that standard in current cases where the acts of communication are criminalized.
Accordingly, your original argument falls flat based upon your own argument; the government can criminalize some speech and you don't seem to have an issue with it where it's obviously pro-social to do so.
So, again, work a little harder on refining the original position - the absolutist approach of complete governmental restriction doesn't exist in real life.
If you want to try redefining speech to only include vocal discussion between two people (which very much is not what freedom of speech entails), you'd still fall flat on almost all of the fraud related restrictions mentioned above in my previous post.
Anyways, that's all from me on the topic, the substance of the reply ignoring literally every area of nuance and actual productive conflict is just nauseating. It's like watching some tech guy tell a banker how bonds should work.
I don’t think I believe this. You’ll need to explain a bit more why I do.
The best I can come up with is “photos are speech, no different than books or pamphlets. “Intellectual property” and pornography are already regulated and there’s no difference between that and other forms of speech. Taking a nude photo without the subject’s consent is the same as writing a book and forcing someone to have their photo taken nude is the same as protesting.” I’d have a problem with this argument but could agree with where it’s coming from.
After reading your response, I’m left feeling like you missed the point of what I said. But maybe I originally missed yours?
I’m sorry for offending you. I assume your profession is law specializing in free speech. It must be exhausting having to engage with the general public on how they feel they feel they should be governed. You’re making me realize I treat my banker the same way, I try to understand (and I have opinions on) the financial instruments I put my savings into before I make the investment.
I’ll preemptively withdraw from this conversation. It’s clear I’m not worthy of having it with you.
I’ll leave with my general sentiment about your original Motte. I vehemently disagree with pro-genocide propaganda but I’ll defend an American’s right to post it.
It is not virtuous to hand the keys of tyranny to your leaders and then wash your hands of the consequences.
It doesn’t matter how correct my principles are. And it doesn’t matter which of the two of us walk away from this thread “feeling virtuous,” “correct,” or “right.” The downstream consequences of my beliefs are mine to bear, and yours are yours.
If my belief system permits the rise of atrocities in this world, history will remember it for that. Not for the principles. Not for the realities I was grappling with. You’ll be judged by future generations no differently.
I don’t disagree there are ongoing atrocities on this planet. I don’t disagree that it’s a moral imperative to try and stop them. But I do disagree with trying to solve these atrocities by eroding the protections that were put in place to prevent our governments from committing those very same atrocities.
How big does a group of people acting in concert have to grow before we start slapping on the shackles because they've reached a mass indistinguishable from an act of governance?
Is it purely a factor rrqrqrawreeqEeaerrteutreeerqeeesrErxdrdrwtrsraArRerrrsrssrrerAars numbers? Anything below N is !government? Or is there a factor of impact? Can one person's decision effect so many and so much that we have to put on the brakes in spite of the fact it is just one person?
It's been no end of annoyance for me over the last few years, because I personally have had a fairly difficult time nailing down the sweet spot between collective action, and everyone needs to take a chill pill, cause this ain't right.
"At least" has a name. It's called "the war on X".
It's easy to start and takes an extremely long time to correct - potentially indefinitely but at least longer than your life span.
On the other hand, the website of Russia Today is not blocked though it does have some intermittent ddos problems.
This skill only develops if people have to deal with lies on a daily basis. If we delegate the function of telling what's a truth and what's a lie to a 3rd party, it quickly starts abusing it for its own gain and the quality of life starts sliding downhill.
Unfortunately, in America and I imagine abroad, those skills have been actively eroded so as to favor of consumerism. Moreover, the tools to pull one over on your fellow man have gotten more and more sophisticated such that you cannot trust recorded voices to be real, you cannot trust recorded video of people talking, and likely soon won't be able to trust recorded video at all.
There's a serious problem with that in its own. But it's compounded when people don't satisfy the very requirements you want of them.
Or let's get specific. My 96yo great aunt with Alzheimer's who has been repeatedly preyed upon.
I'm kind of shocked and disappointed to see these attitudes amongst my colleagues. I thought we cared about each other.
I care that everyone has a choice and blocking information has no place in a free society.
It's called critical thinking, and applies to every facet of life. A person can honestly believe what they are saying, but their belief is not, on its own, evidence that what they are saying is true.
I think schools in the US don't really teach critical thinking, so much as regurgitation. I almost wish schools required a full semester course of debate, pushing students to craft arguments both for and against various topics. I suspect our politics might look a lot different if people were generally more skeptical of the things they're told to just accept.
I think it’s a reasonable criticism of these types of policies given how governments of the past have misused their power of censorship.
And why can you not envision a scenario where someone else finds you, or a known good actor to be bad?
The most juvenile view from censorship discussions, is that you will never be the one that’s being censored.
I don't know about the right to be awful; but there is something deeply unsettling about governments not trusting their people to decide for themselves what kind of information they want to access. Centuries ago, people weren't trusted to read Wycliffe's translation of the Bible. In the Soviet Union, people weren't allowed to read The Gulag Archipelago. Now it's RT. It's preposterous.
Not GP, but the short answer is 'yes'. Because it is a slippery slope. I'm not in the EU and I can still reach rt.com. Presumably archive.org isn't banned in the EU, they can likely access such content if they wished to do so.
rt.com absolutely is a propaganda outlet for the Russian government, thinly disguised as a new site. But, IMHO, blocking them sets a terrible precedent as it's always the most reprehensible/unpopular/awful stuff that comes under fire first by the censors.
And if you allow that, what happens when those with power deem your expression to be unacceptable?
What's more, freedom of expression doesn't mean bad people can spew evil lies and we just have to suck it up. Rather, it means that we should have a robust debate and discussion, not because the liars/hate peddlers/etc. are right, but because defeating such garbage requires actually putting in the effort to rebuke and debunk it.
As Justice Brandeis put it[0], much more eloquently than I did, nearly 100 years ago:
If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to
avert the evil by the process of education, the remedy to be applied is more
speech, not enforced silence.
I don't know what the answer is, because it's a genuinely new environment for the human brain.
I don’t know either, but I know it shouldn’t be censorship
To me- freedom of speech is the right of citizens to criticize the government without reprisal.
This does not mean that adversaries have the right to flood our airwaves with propaganda, lies, and other bullshit under the guise of protected speech.
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022...
Tech clearly engaged in election interference on behalf of Trump's opponents in 2020.
I don't like the man any more than anyone else, but that was a crime.
Maybe stop relying on third party DNS 24/7.
Most web users visit the same sites over and over, several times per month or even per week.
Few of these sites are changing their IP addresses with the same frequency. Some will go years without a change in address.
Yet people keep looking up the addresses every single day if not more frequently.
Google censors all the time. Search results are manipuated in ways that are optimised for advertising, not accesibility of information. Perhaps it's subtle enough that people do not notice. Popularity is not necessarily a proxy for truth. But for a so-called "tech" company, popularity is almost always the most important metric. Because advertising.
https://martinkubecka.github.io/posts/general/recursive_dns/
Aside from that, this isn’t about relying on other systems. That’s literally the Internet. It’s distributed. It’s open. That’s why it runs on 13 root dns servers. This is about large players who control and manipulate vast amounts of users and traffic, forming a cartel to push their business interests in the name of more profits. Remember when ISPs wanted to strong arm Netflix for more money or cripple their bandwidth, effectively making their service so slow nobody would buy it? The tubes of the internet should be that, dumb, open, tubes. Anything else is no long an open internet. I fear we’re well past that now.
What stops Google from "self-censoring" DNS data so that the answers users get from 8.8.8.8 and 4.4.4.4 are optimised for advertising. It makes business sense.
Fortunately nothing in DNS protocol mandates using remote recursive DNS and caches shared with untrusted parties (including the so-called "tech" companies operating them). It is possible to query without the RD bit set and still get the DNS data from authoritative DNS servers instead of resolvers.
But freedom of speech also means you can't compel someone to say something they don't want to say. That's not censorship, that's freedom. You can't force Google to rebroadcast that message.
And if you think that's the first or only thing they choose not to show, you must be very new. Otherwise you'd've noticed by now that your search results aren't all full of child porn and other garbage. Google isn't forced to show that to you.
If you want to see things that Google doesn't show, you're free to find it by other means.
Not complete censorship, of course, but not complete freedom of communication either.
In the past 25 years or so we've gone from being only able to freely communicate our ideas with people we know directly to being able to share anything with anyone all over the world. And it hasn't made life better.
It hasn't improved our wellbeing, it hasn't improved our democracy, it hasn't improved our relationships... Empirically, it just hasn't worked and maybe it would be a good thing to attempt to put the genie back into the bottle.
if hackernews removes child porn or spam, is this "censoring"?
if a music venue, who has spent years building a reputation as an amazing place to see goth bands or metal bands or hyperpop bands, is it "censorship" if they don't book a country band?
if your email provider removes spam, are they "censoring"?
i've found this "who decides" things to be getting increasingly ridiculous. the restaurant owner decides. this isn't rocket science. the music venue owner decides. if a gathering place of humans has spent years cultivating a reputation for certain genres, again, goth music, electronic music, rock music, etc... or fine dining, fast food, bbq, etc.. we don't scream from the rooftops when mcdonalds doesn't serve foie gras. we don't run in panic circles and scream "censorship" when a goth club doesn't book nickelback.
we don't clutch our pearls when our email provider removes spam or child porn and proclaim "omg that dick enlargement pill email was removed! censorship! who decides. oh my who decides."
if you want to argue against centralization of services, im right there with you. no large city has 1 restaurant. there are hundreds if not thousands. no large city has 1 music venue, again there are hundreds. different places for different experiences. if you want to argue that having 1 gateway to the internet is an absolutely absurd and terrifying dystopia, ill be in the front of that line with you carrying my pitchfork. and if you want to argue that just a handful of centralized increasingly walled off social media sites is absolutely awful, again, im with you. we need hundreds or thousands of gateways to online experiences, not the small handful we have today. at this point the "who decides" thing becomes naturally irrelevant.
im not drawing a false equivalence to anything. the article in which this entire comment section is linked surrounds piracy--which for better or worse is illegal, just like child porn. It is entirely and thoroughly relevant to discuss censoring illegal attributes *and* non-illegal attributes such as:
> spam (something you opt-into and can opt out of at any time)
and it is absolute non-sensical to argue that spam is something we opt into. if it were opted into, then by definition it isn't spam. and to even imply that people can opt-out of actual spam is wild. go ahead, set up your own email server, don't "censor" any spam, and attempt to opt-out. let us know how this goes--as someone who has administered many organization's email servers, i can confidently assure you that it will absolutely not go well and you will of course not be able to simply opt-out of it. you *will* censor it. remember, spam isn't illegal, but pretty much every organization in the world will "censor" spam. any crying about censorship which doesn't consider the question "why is it ok to block spam?" immediately shows how unserious and unnuanced the discussion will be--a literal waste of time.
if you can't distinguish between the organizations i listed (restaurants, bars, forums, etc...) curating their audience and some version of wholesale "individuals free speech" then obviously the nuance needed to talk about this in any meaningful manner doesn't exist.
if you are able to distinguish the nuances between those, then i absolutely welcome the discussion.
again, the "who decides" pearl-clutching boils down to the organization and the audience they're curating.
in terms of governments suppressing free-speech, i usually (but not always) agree with most arguments that the government should typically not be prosecuting for speech. sadly, im not shocked with how many of the free-speech internet screamers have suddenly gone quiet now that multiple actual state backed attacks on free-speech are happening across the country. from book bans in libraries, to book bans in schools, to silencing teachers, to drag shows. there have now been 100s (if not 1000s) of these instances and all of those pearl clutchers are now silent. their silence is wildly predictable tho, /shrug
again, there's no false-equivalence as the topic has been so muddied by disingenuous bad-faith actors for so long that many people can't even begin to distinguish between a government suppressing free-speech, websites or places curating an audience experience, and also freedom of association. most of the people crying about censorship don't even understand why the conversation must have at least those as a starting point or its not worth having.
So is "jaywalking", but we don't bring them up in the same discussion because copyright infringement is not in any way comparable to exploitation of minors.
> and it is absolute non-sensical to argue that spam is something we opt into. [...] and to even imply that people can opt-out of actual spam is wild. go ahead, set up your own email server, don't "censor" any spam, and attempt to opt-out.
Firstly, I was obviously referring to spam filtering, not spam itself. Secondly, spam filtering is not censorship. If the government or private entity unilaterally decided to stop emails from <Political Party> from reaching your inbox, that would be censorship. When you yourself decide to use a spam filter, which you're free to customize to your liking - that's not censorship. There is no equivalence. If you're equating content filtering which you have full control over, with censorship, then any discussion is indeed a waste of time.
> if you can't distinguish between the organizations i listed (restaurants, bars, forums, etc...) curating their audience and some version of wholesale "individuals free speech" then obviously the nuance needed to talk about this in any meaningful manner doesn't exist.
The person above the "Who gets to decide?" question was not talking about "censorship" at private in-person establishments, but wholesale censorship of communication because they perceive the entire concept of freedom of expression as a net negative to society. Perhaps you should read it again.
> now that multiple actual state backed attacks on free-speech are happening across the country. from book bans in libraries, to book bans in schools, to silencing teachers, to drag shows. there have now been 100s (if not 1000s) of these instances
I don't understand, you seemingly agree that "who decides" is an extremely important question when someone proposes "censorship", even though you just spent several paragraphs dismissing it as ridiculous.
It shouldn't be "them" deciding what gets censored, right? So if not them, do you get to decide what gets censored?
> again, there's no false-equivalence as the topic has been so muddied by disingenuous bad-faith actors
I agree, dragging user-controlled spam filters into the debate about government censorship of speech is disingenuous and bad faith.
Google started self censoring “Russian propaganda” and everyone was so distracted with the war itself that nobody seemed to take notice of what gears that type of thing set in motion. Sure, they’ve probably been doing stuff like that the whole time, but it was the first I’d ever seen them announce they were altering results publicly and giving us things they deem acceptable.
We need to wake up