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Re:Earth Overshoot Day by ricardo81 on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @10:44AM (#36971617)
This is the kind of thing I point people to when their argument is 'China's opening x number of coal stations up per year'.

In the UK, our own country overshoot per capita is still a good bit above the world average.

Also worth considering historical emissions (and on top of that, the benefits that have came from the work outcome from them leading us til the present situation). As much as emerging countries can 'blame' industrialised countries, surely worth noting that our current technological mitigations are also based on those past emissions.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by Avalaxy on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @11:02AM (#36971862)
It seems to be mostly united statians pointing at China. But in this graph we clearly see that the US reaches their overshoot day twice as fast as China.
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by ricardo81 on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @11:10AM (#36971966)
Indeed, North America per capita consume a lot more energy than most nations.
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by sokoloff on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @11:29AM (#36972248)
Not to mention that we outsource a lot of our impact to supplier countries (China and others).
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by ricardo81 on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @11:31AM (#36972280)
True, and while the UK's emissions per capita has dropped a fair bit since 1990, it's very hard to tell how much of that has been outsourced.

Put another way, it's actually quite difficult to measure your own carbon/resource footprint.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by abyssin on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @12:04PM (#36972757)
My rule of thumb is based on how much money one spends. My reasoning is as follows: it isn't too far off to say our economy is based on fossil fuels. Spending money is taking part in this economy. How much one takes part in that economy tells how much one is responsible for the pollution it creates.

What about people who spend money of organic, fair trade goods, etc.? In the end, that money will be spent by others on goods of the traditional economy.

I'm not too sure about the second part, so criticisms are welcome.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by chmod600 on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @01:06PM (#36973663)
A good first approximation, surely. Money is a good proxy for consumption. Not true for leasing a fancy apartment, though, so you'll want to adjust it.

The idea that money you spend then gets spent by someone else on consumption and that you caused that is a little too hand-wavy for me. But I do suspect that a lot of the politically-correct consumption is not as great as it seems when you look deeper.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by ricardo81 on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @01:57PM (#36974451)
Agree in this approximation. In an ideal world, monetary value would be more closely aligned with energy consumption and in turn aligned with productivity, where productivity is less aligned with monetary value and more aligned with the sunk energy cost.
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by RetroTechie on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @03:48PM (#36976256)
That's only a starting point. Money spent = a kind of 'cost' function, with 'cost' representing raw materials, energy etc used to produce something. Higher cost = more resources used / more damage to environment.

But that's only accurate if all costs (including environmental) are somehow accounted for in market price(s).

That is rarely the case. Apart from the difficulty of assigning $$ values to things like tropical forest cut down, mountain top removed to get copper ore, water used & polluted, or what have you.

Also it doesn't include social costs. If product is cheap but someone's health suffered, or profit helped dictator to reduce press freedom in producing country, is product still cheap?

Too many unknowns & externalities - $$ spent is a poor indicator.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by sokoloff on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:29PM (#36976904)
"All models are wrong; some are useful."
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by throwbadubadu on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @01:05PM (#36973654)
Yep. It is right that Chinas CO2 output has been rising lately quite much with its huge population going to western standards, but tbh, actually China is currently doing more in cutting those emissions than all of the West combined. Our fingerpointing is just stupid lazyness, and soon we will be the ones being pointed with the finger at.. even more. Just read that great summary e.g.: https://nitter.net/KyleTrainEmoji/status/1680246994072133632...

"China is the ONLY country in the world that both has enough resources to make a real difference AND is actually treating the climate emergency like it’s an emergency"

(Still so many posts will likely come and say here how bad China is and how it is all worthless because of them.. just to excuse our non-action).

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by bartimus on Thursday August 03, 2023 @01:27AM (#36981743)
It doesn't make sense to compare countries on a per capita basis.

China has the bigger emission deficit. Therefore China should have the earlier overshoot date.

It doesn't matter how many people live there.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by grotorea on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @12:25PM (#36973085)
But is China opening those coal stations to power factories that export things to the developed world or to power internal demand? Should the pollution of a product get counted in the producing or the consuming country?
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by IMTDb on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @12:39PM (#36973269)
Consuming. Always. Assign the "blame" however you want but the only person who can stop polluting is the person actually asking for the polluting to be done.

"I turn a blind eye to the consequences of my needs/desires" has never been a valid justification for anything.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by carlitossway on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @12:45PM (#36973365)
wish you'd have expressed this better. Your argument is sound but your sarcasm gave a pretext to those not wanting to hear. Now you are dismissed out of hand on shallow grounds.
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by IMTDb on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @01:32PM (#36974063)
I actually don't have strong arguments in favour of what I wrote. My personal point is that it's a complex subject. And you should not deal absolute in such complex subjects.

Having two completely different point of view expressed almost exactly the same ways brings balance to the discussion and leaves the reader with the decision of who is "right" or "wrong". And hopefully will answer "neither". Which is the ultimate goal.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by Spivak on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @12:30PM (#36973152)
Producing. Always. Assign the "blame" however you want but the only person who can stop polluting is the person actually doing the polluting.

"Look what you made me do" has never been a valid justification for anything.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by JamesBarney on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @03:17PM (#36975720)
If you look at consumption vs production co2 emissions statistics they're pretty close. Manufacturing isn't a huge portion of emissions, and we export a lot of goods to China as well.
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by rayiner on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @12:37PM (#36973250)
* * *
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by Someone on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @01:12PM (#36973749)
> China emits 10 billion tons of CO2 annually, compared to the UK’s 358 million. That means whatever the UK does just matters very little to the overall problem of mitigating climate change.

I don’t think it follows from that that “the actual climate change problem isn’t getting people in the UK to use less“. China has 31 provinces, so if you look at China’s emissions by province, there will be quite a few that are at the level of CO2 emissions of the UK or below it. By your logic, that would mean the actual climate change problem isn’t getting people in those provinces to use less.

If so, who has to do something?

> It’s figuring out how to accommodate western standards of living in Asia and Africa without a massive increase in CO2 emissions.

If we can do that, we can cut the UK’s emissions, too.

I also think it’s not about ‘raising’ the world to what the west currently does, but about changing western standards of living. I think there’s substantial room for decreasing CO2 emissions without decreasing well-being (thought experiment: would people be less happy if the airplane hadn’t been invented? If we had run out of oil in 1980?)

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by throwuwu on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @02:21PM (#36974783)
What does a 1980 without oil look like in your imagination?
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by JamesBarney on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @02:39PM (#36975079)
I think most people would rather live in a world that is 5 degrees hotter than one without oil.

You are ignoring the important part of why he divides people into "China" and the "UK". It's not an arbitrary distinction it's the unit with which laws get enacted and have affect. And China can set laws that affect all provinces. If the UK cuts climate change by enacting local laws it'll make the UK worse off, and the rest of world marginally better off. So the smart thing to do from the UK side is not to focus on local laws that reduce carbon footprint but on items that have global reach, such as treaties and technology.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by fnordpiglet on Sunday August 06, 2023 @01:35AM (#37019260)
I think it’s easy to say that before the world is 5 degree hotter than after, and will vary greatly based on impact and how much benefit you saw from what made the world 5 degrees hotter. I think almost anyone but people who are long oil production and ICE technology would rather see a world without oil though. It’s a super useful high density energy source that’s cheap and portable and requires low tech to make use of. But it’s filthy and finite. Beyond CO2, I think no one likes air pollution, high particulate counts, acid rain, soot covering everything, noise pollution, and all the other legacies of the age of fire. I for one welcome the age of maxwells equations.
Re:Earth Overshoot Day by fnordpiglet on Sunday August 06, 2023 @01:03AM (#37019122)
I think the logic is a bit skewed from another angle. How much of the goods used in the UK are produced in China? If so, surely we should reallocate and attribute the CO2 in that production and distribution chain to the UK? If widget X is going to be produced somewhere and consumed in the UK, why does the producer get the attribution? It could just as well been produced in the UK - supply is just reacting to demand, and CO2 is a demand problem. (Not entirely true as production in one locale is likely cleaner than another due to regulation and environmental consciousness, but I think my reattribution model is closer than what we do today).

Re: well being, I think it’s a losing argument. Efficiency and better technologies are more likely to happen than mass enlightenment. I think it depends on what you mean by well being. I suspect people are generally happier for the progress that’s been made in reducing extreme poverty globally, which couldn’t have happened without a cheap and efficient portable energy source like oil. If you’re only measuring western upper middle class educated folks, I’ll wager their well being is worse. But I think you can’t separate the two - the lifting of billions out of extreme poverty and the enshittification of middle class life in the west. But whether you can or not, oil bootstrapped us to this point. But I think we’re demonstrably past bootstrapping and we absolutely must do something different.

Re:Earth Overshoot Day by vondur on Friday August 04, 2023 @04:40PM (#37005574)
Well, the climate doesn't really know how much pollution per/person is being emitted, it's all about the aggregate.