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Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by losteric on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @12:33AM (#36952335)
Posting for Cunningham's law :)

* Green energy suddenly becomes way more viable. Megaprojects in the most efficient sites can send energy long-distance and store it with effectively no loss, somewhat mitigating regional variations (especially if we have a high-trust world order where a united global grid is viable). (I read LK99 might have some limitations carrying lots of current but presumably other approaches would do better)

* EVs: improved performance of motors, batteries, charge time, and weight - huge shift for the market. Much safer than most current car batteries too.

* Big breakthrough for computing in the form of fast, cool, and efficient zero-resistance transistors. Step change for cutting-edge component performance, all the cloud hyperscalers would completely revamp their compute. TSMC / ASML probably get huge volumes of new orders.

Obviously the first bet is following the patents. Otherwise, my play would be the industrial companies that build things that build things, like factory automation companies, followed by companies that would see a surge in demand from products incorporating room-temp superconductor technology, like TSMC, ASML (maybe Apple/AWS).

Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by jakeinspace on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @12:41AM (#36952407)
Sorry, but how does one create a transistor from a superconductor? Maybe I’m missing something here.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by floxy on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @12:57AM (#36952492)
Most superconducting logic families aren't using transistors at all. They use Josephson junctions, which are just two pieces of superconductor separated by a non-supercondutor. RSFQ (Rapid Single Flux Quantum) uses millivolt-high picosecond-long pulses to represent logic 1 and their absence as logic zero, instead of using voltage level as in CMOS.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/783712 (770 GHz toggle flip-flop in 1999)

https://www.physics.sunysb.edu/Physics/RSFQ/Projects/WhatIs/...

Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by Culonavirus on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @01:42AM (#36952746)
Sooo, a 770 GHz processor? Do I understand it correctly? Jesus.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by yetihehe on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:14AM (#36952900)
If using that flip-flop, whole processor will be closer to 100ghz (typically there are multiple transistors which need to stabilise before you have a result of computation). But probably those superconductors could enable even faster transistors and maybe we could get 1THz processors.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by aitchnyu on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:26AM (#36952978)
Like IDE ribbon cables gave way to sleek SATA cables, we could have another parallel to serial transition from silicon multicore crap to superconducting single core.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by jacquesm on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:34AM (#36953032)
No, you'll get superconducting multicore because all that will happen is that the bloat will expand to consume the new cycle budget. This has already happened many times.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by dtx1 on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @06:35AM (#36954436)
I'm looking forward to Chromium version 4201337 needing 20% of my 1Thz CPU to render simple text.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by regularfry on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @05:58AM (#36954229)
We'll get superconducting multicore because as a first step everyone will just map what they already know to the new space. Which is fun.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by MayeulC on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @07:25AM (#36954711)
I suspect you'd still need very low temperatures to make this work, even with a high temperature superconductor: low temperatures reduce thermal noise, which may be an issue at such time scales (unless you pump a lot of energy per bit, which means high voltages (limits scaling) or current/capacitances (also limits scaling).
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by jakeinspace on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @08:12AM (#36954999)
Are you aware of any obvious issues with manufacturing Josephson junctions using photolithography? Like, would switching to an LK-99 or similar set us back to the 70s in terms of wafer density/size?
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by floxy on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @10:16AM (#36956224)
You might be interested is this video, which talks about the EDA issues for RSFQ logic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O6GpFCIxv0

...and...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephson_junction_count

Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by bpye on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @12:47AM (#36952436)
I don’t think we’d necessarily have to use it for transistors, but could use it in place of the metal interconnect that is significant in terms of resistive loss.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by peyton on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @12:49AM (#36952446)
I think Josephson junctions. Also maybe you could eliminate copper loss by using LK-99 interconnect layers.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by rezonant on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:08AM (#36952872)
Well you can apparently make diodes with them: https://scitechdaily.com/mit-develops-superconducting-device...
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by u320 on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @01:47AM (#36952773)
Transmission losses aren't really a big problem for the grid. Cost, geopolitics, and resiliency matters more. I don't expect superconductors to change much here.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by bscphil on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:06AM (#36952864)
This seemed likely the case to me as well. I'd be interesting in hearing any counterarguments (or better still, actual studies) concerning distribution efficiencies.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by almostnormal on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:52AM (#36953135)
The price for electricity is mainly driven by cost of distribution not production. Reducing losses on distribution would further increase the cost of the expensive part (upgrade to SC net) and decrease the cost of the cheap part.

Storage would help, the cheapest production cannot run continuously.

Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by nine_k on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:43AM (#36953083)
Transmission losses are a concern because they require building huge, very high-voltage structures.

Superconductors could make transmission lines much more compact, sturdy, weatherproof, and less vulnerable to sabotage. You could run a thick armored cable instead of a set of open-air wires on tall towers.

Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by jacquesm on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:08AM (#36953238)
You would no longer need high voltages at all. We only use those to cut down on those very transmission losses because we're trying to reduce the amount of current. So you can drop all of the step-up-step-down stuff. On the down side: a short is then practically unlimited in current.
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by nine_k on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:11AM (#36953251)
Exactly the point.

We will still need some step-downs, because current density is limited. But we will need fewer of them, and they won't need the monumental cooling they have now.

Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by leni536 on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @05:14AM (#36954014)
Superconductors have a limit on the current they can carry before the superconducting phase breaks down. This might put similar limits on the voltages.

I agree that the nature of this is entirely different to transmission losses, but I don't expect 230V lines carrying tens of thousands of amps. This would probably require excessive amount of SC material.

Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by abdela on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:50AM (#36953119)
Exactly, NorNed has an efficiency of 95% https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorNed
Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by jacquesm on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:15AM (#36953288)
No, exactly not. The cost of infra is dominated by the transmission network and that transmission network is very expensive to build and maintain, a superconducting network would have some massive advantages. Besides, the losses are in the 5 to 7% range for a typical grid which may sound great in theory but is still a function of the distance between the generators and the consumers. So you can't really put those where you want them, you put them where you have to in order to minimize the transmission losses or you'll have to live with larger losses. Superconductors for the grid would give far more freedom in siting and would allow all kinds of neat tricks such as transporting solar power across the planet based on the day/night and seasonal cycle and likewise for wind power depending on where it is currently blowing the most.

Generating costs are a small fraction of the final price of electricity, taxes and transportation are the big ones.

If you just look at superconductors as a replacement for any old piece of wire you're going to miss out on a whole bunch of advantages, it is a clear qualitative difference which enables solutions that are entirely undoable today. Yes, there is HVDC, but the lines are expensive and due to the high voltages involved are not easy to interface to or from. They do have some unique advantages, being DC they allow non-synchronized grids to be connected.

Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by jerf on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @10:42AM (#36956566)
Transmission losses aren't a big problem for the grid precisely because we know we will have transmission losses, so we don't do things that will incur unacceptable losses.

The whole "plate a desert with solar power and solve the world energy problems" doesn't work because the desert isn't where the power draw is. Superconductors hypothetically permit the African desert to supply Europe with power.

As this goes from science to engineering, we may find other issues with that plan, beyond the obvious expenses (for example, current limits can be handled with more wires, but if the current limit is sufficiently small that's still a problem, this is no solution if the superconducting bundle has a hundred square meter crosssection), but superconductors at least put it on the table. Conventional conductors do not.

Re:Origin of correlated isolated flat bands in LK99 by flangola7 on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @10:15AM (#36956213)
Every doctor's office could have an MRI/fMRI machine, brain scans become routine.