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Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by FirmwareBurner on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:12AM (#36893853)
>The bad thing: Teams would never have gotten any success without malpractice.

Neither would have Chrome to be fair. I remember being a PC user in the late '00s and Chrome ads and downloads links where absolutely everywhere. On Google, on Youtube, on GMail, on any kind of SW installer for Windows would come with a pre-ticked checkbox that would shove Chrome down your throat and then also set itself as the default browser on your system, like ad/-spyware. Naughty-naughty.

It was impossible to escape Chrome not getting on your Windows machine back then, it was like a disease. Sure, it was also hip and cool back then, like all brand new products launched by Google back then that generated hype and curiosity getting people to talk about it and recommend it further, but it wouldn't have reached such insane popularity on pure merit and word of mouth alone.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by nerdix on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:19AM (#36893962)
How so? People with an already functioning browser that ships with their OS have to make a conscious decision to download and install Chrome. Most people would not do that if the default browser of their OS was serviceable.

Chrome gained traction because IE was really, really bad. Now it has mindshare and you might could argue that Google maintains this mindshare with malpractice.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by exceptione on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:39AM (#36894311)
Wrong, it was bundled with software for instance. The average joe found that the launch icon of the original browser had been removed and learned that the internet has gotten a new icon. Google pushed it also via google results. Btw, the EU has fined Google in the past for promoting their products over competitors in their search results. That was already the hint that google has gotten too big to be not in conflict of interest anymore.

The damage was done, people learned to "download the internet" from google first. And if they forgot, all Google services kept pushing them till they did.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by nerdix on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:50AM (#36894459)
What software was Chrome bundled with? I don't recall ever seeing that.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by FirmwareBurner on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:53AM (#36894513)
Alost everything mainstream that was popular on Windows back then: PDF readers, picture viewers, Mp3 players, video players, codec packs, CD/DVD burning SW, anti-virus SW, firewalls, torrent clients, downloads managers, system drivers, etc.

They all had checkboxes for Chrome and other ad-ware. If you didn't pay attention to unchecked them during installation you'd find your default browser changed and other crap. Those who did "tech-support" for family members remember.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by exceptione on Thursday July 27, 2023 @11:10AM (#36894792)
Exactly this. You had to be really vigilant during install.

Average joe: next next next done.

Don't ever fantasize about average users back then doing research if there would be a better web browser and then going ahead to download and install chrome on their own.

"What is a web browser?"

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by nerdix on Thursday July 27, 2023 @01:03PM (#36896635)
I remember third party IE toolbars being bundled (and that practice pre-dated Chrome, IIRC). But I don't remember the full Chrome browser being bundled (I do remember the Google Toolbar). I was a Chrome user from basically the day it was released because I found it to be superior so I may have been blind to the practice since I was already using Chrome.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by WorldMaker on Thursday July 27, 2023 @04:11PM (#36899478)
The Google Toolbar adware installer component itself (the "Google Updater" or something like that) that you remember in installers eventually silently upgraded to a Chrome installer. Almost every installer that ever installed Google Toolbar was automatically a Chrome auto-installer, "thanks" to software as a service. If you didn't uncheck hidden "Google Toolbar" checkboxes, that would also auto-install Chrome. (That added to how hard it felt to keep Chrome from ever being installed on a machine, because sometimes you'd overlook the "Google Toolbar" in older installers as yet another trojan horse for Chrome.)

Eventually the Google Toolbar itself would just auto-upgrade to Chrome as well.

Anecdotally, my father liked the Google toolbar for giving a separate search box in IE, but disliked Chrome and was confused when Chrome auto-installed and the Google Toolbar partly became a big ad for "congrats, you can use Chrome now", and that was one of his reasons to (finally) switch to Firefox for good (he used both IE and Firefox for a long time prior).

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by exceptione on Thursday July 27, 2023 @11:05AM (#36894714)
I can't remember the names, too long ago. I thought even portableapps.com did do that, but I am not sure. The practice of bundling had become really common then: https://superuser.com/questions/850766/downloading-software-...

I remember that I had to specifically uncheck this during installation of freeware back then. People I helped with their computer had no idea where chrome came from, the internet changed on a sudden day. They believably told they didn't download it. Most likely it came with some freeware they did download. For some it could be that they __did download it__ in fact by being tricked into it by weasel wording from google. There was a real strong push, I remember the chrome ads and links to chrome where pushed everywhere in google's services.

Aside, ask a friend what the internet is and they point to chrome. We keep overestimating the average Joe. Young people are not necessarily any wiser, to the contrary I would say.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by edgyquant on Thursday July 27, 2023 @11:13AM (#36894820)
Everything with an installer basically
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by justinclift on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:17PM (#36895847)
Adobe software from rough memory. So, at least Flash Player and Acrobat Reader I think.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by mhermher on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:45PM (#36896319)
I remember the Java updater, which basically anyone using a computer had to occasionally update.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by FirmwareBurner on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:23AM (#36894035)
>People with an already functioning browser that ships with their OS have to make a conscious decision to download and install Chrome. Most people would not do that if the default browser of their OS was serviceable.

We live in the 1950's, I work for Maddison Street and build a massive ad campaign putting ads everywhere you look about smoking, saying how it's so cool and beneficial for your health and how all people should do it if they wanna be cool and healthy. After a while, consumers already happy with breathable atmospheric air become smokers en-masses, voluntarily, putting toxic fumes in their lungs to look cool as advertised.

Who's responsible here?

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by nerdix on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:41AM (#36894332)
That's not malpractice. Chrome's main competitors (except Firefox) literally ship their browsers with their OS and put in place hoops to make changing the OS default browser harder. If anything the ads just help neutralize the massive built in advantage that Microsoft and Apple have.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by Arch-TK on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:40AM (#36894328)
* * *
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by throwawayadvsec on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:21AM (#36894010)
firefox was already good when chrome was launched, chrome didn't gain traction because of IE
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by nerdix on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:36AM (#36894265)
Firefox was slowly chipping away at IE market share before Chrome because IE sucked.

But Chrome was just better than Firefox when it launched so it accelerated the IE decline.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by olyjohn on Thursday July 27, 2023 @06:43PM (#36901108)
I still remember fixing people's PCs who had Chrome installed, and they had no idea what Chrome was or how it got on their computers. I saw it hundreds and hundreds of times. People didn't give a shit that Chrome was slightly faster, most people had turd computers with not enough ram and didn't even know what browser tabs were and the speeds were indistinguishable for most people.

This feels exactly like the whole Mac M1 thing. Every techie person seems to think that the M1 was going to cause all sorts of people to switch to Macs. Guess what? Nobody gives a shit about a 5% faster processor except for power users.

Regular people don't care about Chrome being "better," either and that's not how it got market dominance.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by zeroonetwothree on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:32AM (#36894194)
Chrome was much faster than FF at launch. FF only caught up recently.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by warning26 on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:23AM (#36894044)
Yeah, GP is forgetting what the browser landscape looked like in 2008.

IE was awful, and Firefox was…perfectly cromulent. Chrome was so much better than any of the competition.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by exceptione on Thursday July 27, 2023 @11:17AM (#36894885)
Average joe did not do research. Forget it.

- They found the internet had gotten a new icon and had no idea how it got there. (bundling with popular software)

- They were instructed by google.

That is how chrome came to top. See other comments for more context.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by warning26 on Thursday July 27, 2023 @02:20PM (#36897985)
I mean, what would you expect?

The fact is, browsers aren't a product, they're a platform feature. Users have zero incentive to ever switch from whatever their OS came bundled with, unless you make a massive advertising push. The fact that Google managed to get people to switch to a non-platform browser at all is a shocking achievement.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by olyjohn on Thursday July 27, 2023 @06:45PM (#36901121)
Done by tricking people, and sneakily bundling itself with everything. Sleezey, scumbag achievement.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by warning26 on Thursday July 27, 2023 @08:58PM (#36902028)
I agree that some of their tactics were questionable, but they were up against IE, and Microsoft's bundling of it.

Would you rather everyone still be using IE? Because that's exactly what would have happened otherwise.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by pyrale on Thursday July 27, 2023 @11:25AM (#36894999)
> Chrome gained traction because IE was really, really bad. Now it has mindshare and you might could argue that Google maintains this mindshare with malpractice.

Chrome copied lots of stuff from Opera, and Opera had 2.5% of marketshare. Firefox (who I personally didn't enjoy as much as Opera) had benefited from a grasroots campaign had taken years to get 35% of marketshare. Both were nobrainers compared to how broken IE was, and they were on the market years before chrome.

So.. Yeah. Chrome was a good product. But competitors had showed that being a good browser without insane advertising was never going to be enough.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by crickey on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:00PM (#36895591)
As far as i know Opera and Firefox are doing fine. Kind of ironic in a thread about antitrust people still peddle this idea of needing full market dominance to be considered successful.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by alexvoda on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:59PM (#36896549)
The Opera GP was talking about is dead, it is now just a skin on top of Chromium. And Firefox, the only alternative to the WebKit/Blink monopoly today, has a tiny market share compared to its peak. They are definitely not doing fine.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by lp0_on_fire on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:18PM (#36895870)
Opera was a _great_ browser back in its day. They had tabbed browsing before anyone (as far as I remember). The Presto engine was fast and lightweight. Overall it was a pleasure to use. I was real sad when they decided to abandon Presto and adopted chromium.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by pyrale on Thursday July 27, 2023 @02:12PM (#36897871)
Even before that, it was really sad when it got acquired by a shady corporation transforming it into, essentially, a malware. Back then, I moved to Firefox, and with Opera's popular features becoming the de-facto UX standard for browsers, I never moved back to Vivaldi.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by GeekyBear on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:05PM (#36895660)
Chrome's issue was that you needed a computer with more RAM than normal home users had at the time.

It definitely wasn't better or faster after it forced your system to start heavily using a swap file on spinning rust storage.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by nirvdrum on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:20PM (#36895909)
My recollection may be a bit off, but I recall the Google Toolbar got bundled with everything. People were regularly installing it and not realizing it because it got added to installers for a whole bunch of unrelated things (accounting software, music players, archiving utilities, etc.). Then that toolbar and Google's search page kept spamming people to install Chrome, promising it to be a better Google experience. Which, I believe it was, because Google was doing proprietary things that only their web properties could take advantage of (a precursor to SPDY, I believe). Many others had it installed for them by tech support family members.

That's not to say IE was better than Chrome. I just don't think it appearing on the desktop was a deliberate decision for many. I'd be surprised if many even realized they had installed it.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by no_wizard on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:32PM (#36896116)
I remember when it was fairly common practice (as reported on forums like Reddit at the time) that more tech aware family members would replace the Chrome icon with the IE one most of the time nobody noticed. People felt so passionately about getting off IE they'd do tricks like this (and others) to escape it.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by lotsofpulp on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:26PM (#36896014)
My recollection is Chrome was legitimately better than anything else on Windows, even Firefox.

One especially awesome feature was a built in pdf creator. You did not have to download cutePDF or whatever.

It was also more reliable and crashed less, and probably other things I forget.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by nirvdrum on Thursday July 27, 2023 @11:09PM (#36902747)
For the first couple of years Chrome crashed pretty regularly for me. I hated its automatic updates because it would completely break with more-than-acceptable frequency. I got pretty tired of the glib "Aw, snap!" page. To their credit, I didn't have to wait for an OS system pack to get a fix.

Upon its release it also predictably had compatibility problems, leading Google to implement a wrapper around the IE engine. Firefox had compatibility issues as well. I'm not trying to say one was better than the other. I think people tend to forget the environment Chrome was released into.

Do while IE wasn't great, it was far more stable for me. I favored Firefox, but it was in a bit of tumult at the time. I'm sure Chrome was a better experience for others. I think at the time Google was still basking in its adulation from tech enthusiasts, papering over Chrome's flaws. That was back when people got excited for new Google products and trusted them to not be evil.

As a bonus fun fact, Chrome created a massive headache for Selenium because Firefox's internals where called "Chrome" and "chrome://" was a URL scheme. Selenium used those URLs and got stuck with loads of support requests from the ensuing confusion. Everyone thought Chrome was just an internal project name and that Google would surely pick something that didn't conflict with another browser.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by GeekyBear on Thursday July 27, 2023 @01:28PM (#36897111)
One big driver for Chrome installation was that it was bundled with the popular free antivirus programs of the time when malware on the internet first exploded,

Google paid vendors so that Chrome installed and made itself the default without users even knowing what had happened.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by justinclift on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:22PM (#36895948)
Also, GMail would display a prominent banner about it working better with Chrome, at the same time as it would purposely mis-function on non-Chrome browsers.

The "purposely mis-function" thing isn't a mis-characterisation either. It became fairly well documented over time.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by mschuster91 on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:26AM (#36894075)
> but it wouldn't have reached such insane popularity on pure merit and word of mouth alone.

It was just soooo much better than the competition. I mean, Firefox was better than IE6, but that was not a high bar to pass in the first place. The thing that won over developers IMO was the developer tools: Firebug was slow as molasses and an utter memory hog. And that didn't change for many years - but by the time Firefox caught up, it was too late.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by pjerem on Thursday July 27, 2023 @11:26AM (#36895018)
You are exaggerating here.

While there was for sure a long period of time where Chrome was significantly faster than Firefox, there was never a time where Firefox was particularly bad. Firefox always oscillated between "really good" and "totally ok".

I’ll agree with you that Chrome really changed the web development experience with incredible tooling compared to what you could get back then but this had no impact on most users experience.

I totally remember Chrome being the fastest/snappiest browser, especially the first versions but Firefox has never been slow.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by mschuster91 on Thursday July 27, 2023 @01:51PM (#36897494)
> I’ll agree with you that Chrome really changed the web development experience with incredible tooling compared to what you could get back then but this had no impact on most users experience.

Yes, but guess what the developers started pushing onto their friends who asked for a browser? The one they were personally using.

Word-of-mouth is insanely powerful and FF alienated way too many of the key people.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by crgwbr on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:15AM (#36893916)
But also when Chrome first came out, it was legitimately better than the competitors. FF at the time was horribly slow. Teams was never better than Slack.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by nerdix on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:33AM (#36894214)
Exactly. It's been a while and so a lot people either don't remember or were too young to really remember.

I was a Firefox user at the time (was using it when it was Firebird). People were already starting to shift away from IE towards Firefox at the time. A sequence of events where a person's computer was infect with malware, they asked a computer savvy friend for help, the friend "fixed" it, installed Firefox and told them to stop using IE is how most people switched browsers in those days. But Firefox was a slog and Chrome was a breath of fresh air when it was first released. So the sequence was tweaked to "install Chrome and tell you to stop using IE".

Chrome became what it is because Microsoft had tried to neuter the internet because they saw the web app potential and understood that it could undermine Windows market share. And when they realized that there was no stopping the internet, they spent several years incompetently trying to improve IE (and eventually Edge) before eventually going the "can't beat em, join em" route.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by exceptione on Thursday July 27, 2023 @11:28AM (#36895043)
Chrome was faster and optimized for google services indeed.

However, Google was smart enough to know that being superior doesn't count. Firefox was not horribly slow, the leap from firefox over IE was massive. Chrome over firefox wasn't quite the same leap.

The average user has been pushed aggressively, they weren't going to do research on web browsers when they even didn't know what a web browser is. Google knew that.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by actualwitch on Thursday July 27, 2023 @11:45AM (#36895316)
Your pink glasses are showing. For the longest time before quantum firefox was generally very slow and straight up locking ui thread when it feels like it.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by misnome on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:18PM (#36895869)
When a tab crashed or got heavy usage on Firefox, the whole browser locked up.

Chrome didn’t. It was noticeably faster and more reliable.

Switching browsers isn’t something that people generally do lightly. You lose them, you lose them for a decade+.

That and Mozilla behaviour hasn’t been great over the past several years; like, forced advertising extensions, crypto, more advertising to turn off on a fresh install than _google_…

Manifest v3 will probably be the straw that forces me to switch back again, but reluctantly.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by Semaphor on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:20AM (#36893981)
What? Chrome was so far ahead of everyone else, it wasn’t even funny. I remember telling everyone I knew to use Chrome instead of whatever they used because it was so much better.
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by sneak on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:44AM (#36894375)
Ads and download promotions are not bundling and it is an error to conflate them.

Aggressive marketing is not malpractice.

Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by rejectfinite on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:29PM (#36896064)
Chrome was better and faster than Firefox when it came out...
Re:EU opens Microsoft antitrust investigation into Teams bun... by slibhb on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:30PM (#36896078)
No. Chrome was much faster than Firefox when it came out, which was in turn much faster than IE.