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Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by tekla on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:08PM (#36774747)
Good, should set an example for everyone else. YOU got into MIT, not the color of your skin, nor whose parents you had.

I have a half dozen 1st generation friends who worked their asses off in inner city schools to get full ride scholarships to get into top schools, and are now part of the professional class in a single generation.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by ramraj07 on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:18PM (#36774945)
No matter how much you try you never get into any top school just by your own hard work. It's necessary but not sufficient.

For example, admission to most top grad schools in biomedical sciences is only possible without quota if you have publications. Guess who gets published in their undergrad more often than others? Children of professors.

In the end the reality is pretty much everyone of socio-economic privilege gets one boost or another that's not available to other groups of people. That's why I don't get mad if some underprivileged classes get "unfair" quotas as alleged by the US supreme court. I didn't get mad that rich kids can get into Harvard without too much work, why would I get mad that an underprivileged kids can do that now?

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by userabchn on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:41PM (#36775354)
> Children of professors

This is like people claiming that because a higher percentage of children of high earning parents become high earners, that they got an unfair advantage because their parents could pay for them to go to good schools, etc. That might be part of it, but having parents who are intelligent enough and have the attitudes and habits to get a high earning job means that you will most likely be more intelligent than average and have absorbed those attitudes and habits as well.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by ramraj07 on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:46PM (#36775448)
It's not the intelligence of the parents or the kids that gets them published. It's "hey, friend, could you let my son join your lab and work on a project that'll get his name on a paper?" That gets them a paper. I could do everything right, join as many labs as possible and work my ass off for every year of my undergrad and still not get a single paper without such a recommendation. I know because that's what happened to me.
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by filoleg on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @01:24PM (#36776133)
How common is this at all? Asking because I went to one of the fairly high tier public research schools in the US (Georgia Tech), have tons of friends who got published during their undergrad (almost did myself too, but priorities changed, and I quit research in that lab before we got to the point of draft submissions), and not a single one of those friends had academia-affiliated parents. None of them were donors to the school either.

I don't doubt that those scenarios you describe happen, but I strongly doubt it happens at top research schools in any capacity that would be noticeable or affect anything. In fact, professors running the labs that I've encountered couldn't care any less about who you are, and way more about what you can bring to the table in terms of getting things done and published.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by getoffmycase on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @02:30PM (#36777179)
Undergrad researchers are typically shielded from all of the bullshit that goes on behind the scenes because they aren’t in lab 40+ hours a week. I know, personally, of 5 separate 16-18 year old kids that have been a part of academic labs.

They have all been professors kids or friends of professors kids

Quick edit: I’ll also add that PIs project one face to prospective students and “outreach” students, like a high schooler is. Additionally, adding a high schooler to your lab gets you points for scientific outreach, which can help with certain grant submissions.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by throw9away6 on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @05:17PM (#36779236)
Before DEI almost all our interns were kids of employees. Now they are almost all DEI candidates, either way is always some special group. I assume the same is true in university
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by filoleg on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @06:26PM (#36779871)
If you think professors care much about DEI when it comes to hiring students for their research labs, I have a bridge to sell you. Professors don't seem to have DEI as one of the primary metrics tied to their performance and financial compensation. They might have some, but I've never seen it, though I've definitely seen those metrics being a significant factor in performance review for some org directors in the industry.

My (and that of everyone I know) experience with undergrad research was more like just taking a class with a professor, checking out their research papers, finding their research topics interesting enough, having a chat with the professor after the class or sending an email asking if their lab is looking for research assistants, meeting up with the professor to have an informal conversation to decide whether this is a good fit and whether it is a potential publication opportunity, and that was pretty much it.

Caveat to this: only talking about STEM fields, as I have zero idea how sociology/psychology/etc. labs hire researchers or even operate at all.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by filoleg on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @06:19PM (#36779827)
> Undergrad researchers are typically shielded from all of the bullshit that goes on behind the scenes because they aren’t in lab 40+ hours a week.

Sure, but the original comment was about the difficulty of getting published without being a child of an academic or an influentional person. Getting published as a 16-18 years old kid is insanely rare and unachievable for most, and I would agree that for that you might want to rely on hookups from parents. Mostly because it is so uncommon and rare, heavy majority of labs won't even be able to provide the necessary support for a high schooler to be productive in their research (exceptions apply ofc). However, getting published as an undergrad is very doable for most academically-minded students, and there are plenty of opportunities to do so at most research-centric colleges.

As for grad school, guess what's the most helpful item on the CV that professors and grad admission committees look at when deciding whether give an acceptance offer to a prospective grad student? It is their previous undergrad research and publication experience.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by legolas2412 on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @01:22PM (#36776097)
So, if one kid gets more parental attention and devotes more effort in studying than peers of the same income level and means, that is "privilege"?
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by Shaanie on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @04:58PM (#36778985)
Of course having supportive parents is a privilege, why wouldn't it be?
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by mbesto on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:22PM (#36775007)
> YOU got into MIT, not the color of your skin, nor whose parents you had.

Or you get into MIT because of your zip code, which is basically true of all elite schools:

https://www.admissionsmadness.com/blog/your-zip-code-is-the-...

your half dozen friends are anecdotes.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by jncfhnb on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:40PM (#36775349)
This article cites a survey that claims alumni, not admits, all live in the same zip code. The study is also not about MIT.

It shouldn’t surprise anyone that good schools have better admission rates to good universities.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by ghaff on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @02:31PM (#36777185)
>It shouldn’t surprise anyone that good schools have better admission rates to good universities.

The actual answer is probably "it's complicated." MIT also doesn't want to filled with Stuyvesant and Bronx School of Science grads. (Though last time I saw the numbers they did admit a fair number anyway.) 5% of my small high school graduating class ended up at MIT but that was a long time ago and I assume that wouldn't happen today.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by sanitycheck on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:18PM (#36774933)
Eh. It's mostly genetics that determine academic ability (and everything else), so reaching an end goal of "total equality" would in fact make admissions all about who your parents are.
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by Joker_vD on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:23PM (#36775028)
Which is why only pure-blood Germans must be allowed to the higher education unlike Jews, Slavs, Gypsies and other such Untermenschen. sigh

Genetics don't determine that much as some would like to believe, seriously.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by jncfhnb on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:48PM (#36775493)
You’re implying that the beliefs here must be racially consistent, which is a straw man.
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by sanitycheck on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:52PM (#36775543)
I'd thought HN was above calling people Nazis? I've said nothing about race.

If we want a meritocracy we have to be comfortable with genetics playing a role in outcomes.

Personally I've realised that a meritocracy would not be "fair" in the way that a lot of people assume.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by Joker_vD on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @01:06PM (#36775811)
Alright, let's talk about eugenics then? After all, it's not just Nazis that had eugenics programs in the newest history: the USA had forced sterilization well into the seventies, so it can't be all that bad.
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by chongli on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:56PM (#36775612)
The evidence would suggest otherwise [1]. Race is a very bad proxy for intelligence, but that doesn't mean intelligence isn't genetic.

[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/26/the-atomic-bomb-consid...

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by willis936 on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @02:10PM (#36776878)
A heritable trait is not inherently genetic.
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by chongli on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @02:41PM (#36777327)
That’s where twin studies [1] come in. The evidence for genetic factors explaining intelligence and academic achievement is extremely robust.

[1] https://www.science.org/content/article/genes-dont-just-infl...

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by medvezhenok on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:57PM (#36775641)
Genetics does determine quite a lot, race is just not the primary factor involved. There have been many twin studies to this effect.
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by xienze on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @02:06PM (#36776815)
There seems to be this mental block for certain people about genetics when it comes to anything brain-related. Genetics have an impact on your athletic ability? Of course! Genetics have an impact on your intelligence? Impossible!
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by sanitycheck on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @04:32AM (#36783508)
Amazing isn't it, net downvotes for facts!

I think people strongly want (need?) to believe that good things have happened to them mostly as a result of their own virtues which are of course entirely self-determined.

In fact if free will even exists (evidence is against) the scope for its operation to affect one's future is very narrow. We are who we are, and where we are, because of our parents plus a little bit of chance.

As societies we can decide (to some extent, if democratic) to redistribute wealth and strive for equal opportunities for all. This is a good thing for civilisation, by giving the best minds access to the best training and resources we can make more scientific discoveries and technological breakthroughs.

But is it "fair" in the sense that we all have equal opportunities to achieve greatness? Of course not, we are not all born into (genetic) wealth.

Do we even want less able people to be given the best education? If we would give everybody the same (perfect) education what benefit do people on the lower three-quarters of that spectrum get? You'd need a degree to get even the most menial jobs? That doesn't seem to benefit anybody.

A better idea seems to be "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". We should stop judging the value of a person by their wealth or their ability or their achievements. We're a very long way from that though.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by abirch on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:23PM (#36775025)
I think it's 60-70% of academic achievement can be explained by genes. If you know kids from a big family, their academic success can vary significantly although they have the same parents.
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by sanitycheck on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:45PM (#36775429)
Sure, and they may not all have the same colour eyes - variation is expected.

But still, we have nature (genes, 60-70%) and nurture (hey, parents again). What else is there?

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by jncfhnb on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:50PM (#36775518)
Luck (excluding controllable factors by wealthy parents)
Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by abirch on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @01:50PM (#36776567)
I'd say opportunities. When there are fewer kids matriculating into college it's easier to get into a better school (see Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers)

Professors and Teachers, the variability of them is huge.

Friends can have a huge impact as well. Is the norm to skip classes to go work on a startup or focusing on getting good grades?

Resources such as the Numberblocks which make math more visual and accessible. My pre-K kid was doing multiplication because of that show.

Re:Does MIT consider legacy? by chongli on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @01:00PM (#36775687)
Yes, and identical twins raised apart show extremely similar academic achievement, far more similar than non-identical siblings raised in the same household. This strongly indicates that academic achievement is highly explained by genes but that recombination [1] causes enough scrambling to result in large variance among non-identical siblings.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_recombination