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Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by dffdsa432 on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @06:44AM (#36679103)
Thames Water's CEO has a $1.5 million pay package which is lower than CEOs of corporations of the same size. The funding for public unions in the UK is $233 billion. Great comparison there.
Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by arethuza on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @06:52AM (#36679167)
CEOs of corporations of the same size quite often have to find and retain customers in competitive markets - which is hardly the case with Thames Water?
Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by dffdsa432 on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @06:58AM (#36679217)
What is your point? $1.5 million is used to attract a CEO who can manage a large corporation. That is less than many players on second tier English clubs who are riding the pine. That is a rounding error when considering $233 billion paid to unions.
Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by rightbyte on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @07:18AM (#36679371)
CEOs have almost no competitive pressure. They are mostly recruited within the upper class.

Paying more won't net you a better one.

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by darkclouds on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @10:40AM (#36681660)
>CEOs have almost no competitive pressure.

Yes they do, from rival businesses, superior and new technology, just look at Chat-GPT potentially putting programmers out of work, or telegrams being made redundant by pagers, and text messages and email.

@arethuza

>CEOs of corporations of the same size quite often have to find and retain customers in competitive markets - which is hardly the case with Thames Water?

Water companies are delivering a minimum standard of water, call it the least toxic form of water considering the energy constraints and logistics of delivering water en-masse compared to other methods of obtaining water.

Mains water from a very young age always made me sick, so where possible I use bottled spring water in the kettle, but am currently considering a reverse osmosis water filter, to deionise the water in the house as much as possible.

Deionised water is the best tasting, sweetest tasting water I've ever experienced, and if I listened to the medical experts I should be dead on numerous counts of their assertations. So two fingers up to them as well! LOL

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by arethuza on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @11:01AM (#36682000)
I'm in Scotland so I have perfectly pleasant tasting water from the state-owned Scottish Water whose CEO get paid a small fraction of what the Thames Water CEO gets paid (~£295K plus bonus).

https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/About-Us/News-and-Views/2022...

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by smcl on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @11:06AM (#36682065)
I don't think you understand what these companies do if you believe Thames Water is in competition with Evian or Brita. Remember they're not just providing drinking water but handling the treatment, recirculation and safe disposal of wastewater too. So in addition to having inadequate storage for some parts of England and cutting back maintenance to the extent that they lose an enormous amount in leaks, one of the bigger problems is how they're failing to adequately dispose of wastewater. As a consequence of this there are some rivers, lakes and beaches in England + Wales that are now unsafe but which weren't before they were privatised.
Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by darkclouds on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @01:27PM (#36684286)
> As a consequence of this there are some rivers, lakes and beaches in England + Wales that are now unsafe but which weren't before they were privatised.

Carefully chosen words, someone has done their research!

Thats what happens when new standards come into force and improve upon the old standards.

https://environment.data.gov.uk/portalstg/home/item.html?id=...

"The purpose of this dataset is to present a summary of bathing water compliance in England between 1988 and 2014 against the old bathing water directive (76/160/EEC), which was repealed on the 31/12/2014"

However I'm not against better standards, but I am against some of the "engineered" methods used to gain those standards....

https://www.ciwem.org/the-environment/how-should-water-and-e....

As I was saying, some things are engineered....

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by smcl on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @07:05PM (#36688394)
You're going to have to do a bit more than hand-waving about a bathing water directive being repealed back in 2014 and dumping a couple of links. If you want to make a point, make it.
Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by darkclouds on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @09:26AM (#36694190)
There's lots of factors at play here, it could be brexit related because the beachs have become soiled so people go to Europe for a break, we dont know who is invested in Thames water, are these british pension funds or other types of investors. Is this a sexism thing, what with a female ceo, has she been wrongly advised, manipulated with data presented in a particular way.

There's so many factors potentially at play here and some of it we wont get to ever know about, but life has taught me there is manipulation in many guises.

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by smcl on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @03:42PM (#36700561)
Wait before you were certain I was some sneaky trickster doing wordplay and that you had a slam dunk of a response, now “there’s lots of factors at play here”?

What changed?

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by darkclouds on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @04:50PM (#36701473)
Nothing has changed, I simply didnt document all my thoughts on here straight away because its not a Rorschach test, besides I let google suggest some of the links, because I've noted how manipulative it is at shaping public discourse.

An upgrade to Eli Parsier's original filter bubble warning, one might say. https://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_b...

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by lostlogin on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @11:11AM (#36682125)
> Yes they do

In the examples here, no, CEOs don’t face real competition. Water companies are sold off public utilities. They way they make profit is to degrade service and raise prices. No one is going to install a competing water system. No AI is going to do that anytime soon.

The Economist has a political bent, but they are clear on how privatisation has gone: ‘Dogmatic adherence to privatisation in the face of its sustained failure suggests ideology, not pragmatism, was the motivation.’

> Water companies are delivering a minimum standard of water

No they aren’t. That’s a key point in the article.

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by darkclouds on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @01:16PM (#36684080)
> They way they make profit is to degrade service and raise prices. No one is going to install a competing water system.

So that other technologies, like rainfall capture systems and water filtration systems can be become financially viable through economies of scale. If you have a roof you can top up water tanks, water filtration systems clean the water and can recycle the water. Reverse Osmosis filtration which deionises the water is about as pure as you can get, so pure nothing can grow in it, which is why colony forming units (CFU's) aka TVC's are so low, lower than spring water.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/spring-water-rules-for-local-aut...

This article explains why Thames Water is in the news. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/shortcuts/poll/2013/... "after 2025, Thames Water believes more drastic measures will be needed"

Not long to go.... standby for some more "engineered" news.

>The Economist has a political bent,

Whilst its easy to say, privatise problems, Thames water has its own unique problems, but when looking at something like the coal miners, what did it do? It shifted people away from using coal to other less large airborne particulate laden forms of fossil fuel, the latest being air source heat pumps 1w in 4watts out at best, solar power 15-22% efficiency, and nuclear with the debate over the use of different nuclear fuels, like plutonium and thorium. Sort by Specific Energy (MJ/Kg) at this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#In_nuclear_reac...

Anyway some things are engineered including things in the news like Thames Water.... Someone's getting a shake down!

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by rightbyte on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @04:15PM (#36686638)
> Yes they do

I meant while applying to their own position. Not between corps. The CEO market is artificially small.

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by smcl on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @08:12AM (#36679880)
I don't think you want to point at English football clubs if we're talking about sensible or sustainable wage bills, not least since one of the issues highlighted in the article are the debt load of these English and Welsh water companies.
Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by youngtaff on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @08:17AM (#36679927)
As you were asked before where are the unions paid $233bn?

If the RMT had that amount of money I’ve no doubt Mick Lynch would be using it to buy the railways

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by DharmaPolice on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @08:19AM (#36679944)
"Paid to unions"? Do you mean paid to staff who might be members of unions? And if so why you are comparing money paid to a specific company to money paid to union members across the entire public sector?
Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @07:02AM (#36679243)
What is this number of $233 billion, it sounds preposterous.

Is that the combined salaries of all union members?

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by lostlogin on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @09:00AM (#36680367)
> The funding for public unions in the UK is $233 billion

That’s a pretty amazing figure, how was that calculated?

Are you seriously arguing that that the Thames Water CEO was underpaid? They have been mismanaged extraordinarily. Their debts, losses, costs, service and environment records are so poor that nationalisation is being discussed. They have been paying dividends and bonuses throughout.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/10/thames-wate...

Re:Why privatisation has been a costly failure in Britain by lifeonlars on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @10:38AM (#36681623)
The 'funding for public unions' is 7% of the economy?