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Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by progbits on Saturday July 08, 2023 @11:06AM (#36645100)
XPrivacy for rooted android could do this 7+ years ago and there are other modern alternatives (but I haven't rooted my phone for a long time so I can't vouch for them): https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacy

Obviously that is not mainstream, I agree it should come built in. But then both Android and iOS allow bullshit like region-locked apps or preventing screenshots from DRM content, so good luck with that.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by anotherhue on Saturday July 08, 2023 @11:30AM (#36645345)
I used it in this way, and experiencing first hand how much the deck was stacked against me as a user let to me abandoning any belief that phones are computers.

They are vendor content delivery devices and you are at their mercy.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by sspiff on Saturday July 08, 2023 @11:34AM (#36645375)
This would never land in a factory image or upstream Android, but it has a reasonable chance to become part of projects like LineageOS, given enough user demand for it.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by kevin_thibedeau on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:08PM (#36645710)
LineageOS already had this feature in Cyanogen as the Privacy Guard. It was taken out because of pressure from Google.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by jeroenhd on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:23PM (#36645893)
Do you have any reference for that pressure from Google? I thought it was because during one of the major version merges the underlying code changed so much that the entire feature would've needed reimplementing from scratch, like many other Cyanogenmod era features.

Edit: source here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28096873

Privacy Guard also wasn't as complete as XPrivacy (and its evolutions) were. It's a shame that the feature disappeared, but I don't think it mattered much to begin with.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by scrps on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:22PM (#36645880)
You have a source on that? I used to be a lineageOS user and I always wondered why privacy guard disappeared.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by jeroenhd on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:27PM (#36645921)
I found this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28096873

Looks like Privacy Guard was dropped because the rewrite wasn't worth the effort.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by scrps on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:34PM (#36646020)
Thanks for that. Indeed, doesn't sound worth the effort to pursue it if google was mostly going in the same direction anyway.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by luca020400 on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:59PM (#36646957)
Thanks for digging it up.

Sometimes I can't comprehend how people come up with that stuff when it was already publicly explained how/why it happened :/

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by luca020400 on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:54PM (#36646883)
Pressure from Google?

I myself removed that feature because the effort to have it was more of an hassle than anything else.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by Nereuxofficial on Saturday July 08, 2023 @11:22AM (#36645264)
XPrivacy was incredibly cool. But on modern phones rooting and installing Xposed has either gotten massively more complicated or disabled ougright. GrapheneOS wasn't working with banking apps, Google broke rooting via Magisk multiple times on the Android Beta and at some point and i stopped bothering.

Maybe GrapheneOS or similar Projects could do this

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by flutas on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:31PM (#36645980)
FWIW: Rooting seems fairly easy at this point in time, at least for pixel devices.

Flash with magisk, install Universal Safetynet Fix (https://github.com/Displax/safetynet-fix/) and you're passing safetynet / play integrity API.

I haven't come across a single app that doesn't work due to root currently, but I limit my installed apps.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by kevincox on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:05PM (#36646329)
You pass basic safety net. You do this by claiming that your device is an older device that doesn't support hardware attestation. I can only assume that in some small number of years hardware attestation is going to be required and will require software exploits to work around.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by e4e5 on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:16PM (#36646427)
Thank you, I rooted my phone a few days ago and have been putting off fixing safety net.

But that worked and was absolutely painless.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by rocho on Saturday July 08, 2023 @04:50PM (#36648627)
Last time I tried this I wasted many hours but couldn't make Google Wallet work. SafetyNet was passing but Wallet was still disallowing any card operations.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by jcul on Saturday July 08, 2023 @05:03PM (#36648751)
I think you need to hide root for Google wallet and some other Google services app(s).

And wipe their storage / cache too so they start from a clean slate.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by Groxx on Saturday July 08, 2023 @05:02PM (#36648734)
Last time I tried to use magisk on my pixel it was a complete fustercluck (about a year ago). I ended up having to patch together multiple fixes in multiple forum threads, and manually pick apart and patch the firmware package, because nothing worked at all for months on end, on a completely stock device.

I have kinda lost faith in it. And it doesn't help that it tries to do everything internally, so you can't e.g. download your pre-patch blobs or upload them after it loses track of them, because it does everything exclusively in complicatedly-magically-named internal folders. There is some seriously bonkers decision-making going on in it.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by jcul on Saturday July 08, 2023 @05:02PM (#36648739)
FWIW,I just installed GrapheneOS this week and banking apps have been working fine (though no Google pay).

Also, as a sibling comment mentioned, I have used magisk + safety net fix in the past, and had no issues with banking apps or Google pay.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by jet_32951 on Saturday July 08, 2023 @09:50PM (#36650713)
GrapheneOS has implemented storage and contact scopes. Users can set a program's permitted storage environment. Similarly, contact scopes allows users to limit access to contacts that are tagged with a keyword. On my phone the 'special' contact group includes Djimn Hovnbg, with a number in Egypt, Blin Futtum'ch with a UK number, and so on.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by charcircuit on Saturday July 08, 2023 @11:37AM (#36645396)
>region-locked apps

There is no such thing. The respective app stores allow you to distribute apps in select regions. This is an important feature for app stores because an app may not be a good experience in all countries. The app may not be localized to all languages, there may not be content moderators for those languages, those countries have a multitude of laws that you need to comply with, your app may include copyrighted content which is only licensed to be distributed it certain countries, etc..

>preventing screenshots from DRM content

This is a feature requested app developers due to the legal requirements when licensing content such as movies. Movie studios don't want people streaming or recording their movies so app platforms need a way to surely show this content.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by aftbit on Saturday July 08, 2023 @11:43AM (#36645461)
>This is a feature requested app developers due to the legal requirements when licensing content such as movies. Movie studios don't want people streaming or recording their movies so app platforms need a way to surely show this content.

Of course, but if our industry had any chutzpah, we would have simply said "no, that's impossible" and continued to distribute operating systems where the user has ultimate control over the hardware and recordings. If movie studios want people to watch their content, they'll have to accept the risk of piracy. It's not like clipping and recording from your phone is how the pirate rips appear anyway. Even imagining that a movie was released only for one model of super-secure phone, someone somewhere will either break the security or simply stick their phone in a dark box and record it with a camera. Once they've done so, they can share the un-DRMed version online on pirate sites and everyone else can download it.

As long as the analog hole exists, DRM is anti-consumer without reducing the likelihood that copyrighted content will be reshared freely online.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by spockz on Saturday July 08, 2023 @11:58AM (#36645593)
Don’t share this too hard. I’m afraid for a future where we are only able to watch content that is being streamed to our ocular implant directly. This has the nice benefit that it allows for hyper personalisation and always visible hyper relevant ads!
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by charcircuit on Saturday July 08, 2023 @04:56PM (#36648676)
>no, that's impossible

When you are a platform owner it is important that you evaluate the needs of all stakeholders and not just the needs of the users of the platforms. Telling app developers that you are not willing to compromise is not a great way to convince them to create apps for your platform. Also as a platform you want your platform to appear as a safe place for content owners to have their content on. You will have trouble convincing content owners that your platform is safe if it's security is much worse than everyone else's

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by kerkeslager on Saturday July 08, 2023 @05:41PM (#36649053)
> When you are a platform owner it is important that you evaluate the needs of all stakeholders and not just the needs of the users of the platforms.

I disagree. The literal entire purpose of every single non-user entity involved in this situation is to serve users, and if it's not serving users, then that's a systemic failure. If corporations want a place at the table, they should be serving users, and if they can't serve users, there should not be a table for them to sit at, period.

In the cases referenced, that means DRM should be illegal, period. Platforms shouldn't have to allow DRM to attract content creators, because there should not be competitors that have DRM. If the option to have DRM doesn't exist, then platforms don't have to compete to attract content creators with user-hostile misfeatures like DRM.

Our economy should be designed to serve people, not corporations. Anything else is a failure.

I understand the law says corporations are people. I'm saying the law is wrong.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by charcircuit on Saturday July 08, 2023 @08:34PM (#36650182)
>they should be serving users

Bringing content users want to watch is serving users.

>DRM should be illegal, period

Why? It is preventing users from doing illegal things. Saying that DRM should be removed so that users can make illegal copies of the media they are watching is not a strong argument to me.

>Our economy should be designed to serve people, not corporations

People make content and people want to be able to have their copyright not be infringed. Computers by default make it way to easy to violate the copyright of creators which in why making it possible to secure content is such a valuable idea.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by progval on Saturday July 08, 2023 @09:14PM (#36650466)
DRM also prevents users from doing legal things. Such as making copies for personal use, which is legal in France. Or when done by library or archive, in the US. Or copying short clips, which is legal as "fair use" in many jurisdictions.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by smoldesu on Saturday July 08, 2023 @11:07PM (#36651106)
> People make content and people want to be able to have their copyright not be infringed.

Tough shit. Copyright is entirely arbitrary, and it's bad actors have ruined it for everyone else. DRM will be evil for as long as "buying isn't "owning"; until then piracy will be strictly superior.

> Computers by default make it way to easy to violate the copyright of creators

And my kitchen knives by default make it way too easy to violate homicide laws. You can argue it is overall more beneficial to the consumer to disadvantage themselves so the market can thrive, but that's still an anti-consumer market.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by charcircuit on Sunday July 09, 2023 @01:52AM (#36651943)
>Copyright is entirely arbitrary

Even if copyright wasn't a thing some creators do not want their work to be copied.

>And my kitchen knives by default make it way too easy to violate homicide law

If kitchen knives were made impossible to use for homicide, but could be made for the same exact price in the same amount of time and were just as effective at everything else there would be no reason for people to sell homicide capable knives.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by taco9999 on Sunday July 09, 2023 @03:36AM (#36652454)
> kitchen knives were made impossible to use for homicide

Can't wait for kitchen knives that immediately self-destruct if you use them on items that didn't come from the knife manufacturer's grocery store.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by kerkeslager on Monday July 10, 2023 @12:41PM (#36668914)
> If kitchen knives were made impossible to use for homicide, but could be made for the same exact price in the same amount of time and were just as effective at everything else there would be no reason for people to sell homicide capable knives.

If content were made impossible to pirate, but could be made for the same exact price in the same amount of time and were just as effective at everything else there would be no reason for people to sell piracy capable content.

But, homicide-incapable knives and piracy-incapable content aren't real. They're a fantasy, which does not exist.

All DRM does is make it harder for legitimate users to access content they have paid for.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by smoldesu on Monday July 10, 2023 @03:28PM (#36671689)
To add to that:

We cannot create homicide-resistant knives because it is indistinguishable from lawful slaughter and butchering knives. Similarly, computers have a powerful native feature - the ability to infinitely copy digital content until you run out of storage or electricity. This can be used for legal and nonlegal purposes, but neutering it's capabilities is unthinkable.

Copy protection tries to put the genie back in the bottle, and then blames the community when things go wrong. It's a circular process that resists advancement and protects exploitative parties.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by kerkeslager on Monday July 10, 2023 @12:38PM (#36668864)
> Why?

Read the rest of my post.

> It is preventing users from doing illegal things.

It's not, clearly. Search your favorite DRM'ed TV show name followed by "torrent S01E03" (to indicate season 1 episode 3) and see how well that DRM is working.

> Saying that DRM should be removed so that users can make illegal copies of the media they are watching is not a strong argument to me.

I didn't say that.

DRM should be removed so that users can access content they've paid for. DRM nearly always effects legitimate users.

> People make content and people want to be able to have their copyright not be infringed. Computers by default make it way to easy to violate the copyright of creators which in why making it possible to secure content is such a valuable idea.

It's not a valuable idea, because it's an impossible idea. If you can view the content, you can pirate it. Period. DRM has done absolutely nothing to stop pirates and has consistently harmed users.

It's worth noting that content creators are often totally on board with releasing without DRM: it's content distributors who are worried about this, generally.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by kennyloginz on Sunday July 09, 2023 @01:32AM (#36651835)
I worked for a couple years at a company that delivered electronic assessments. Their use case makes sense for control of the device ( these assessments were usually delivered to a classroom environment where proctors could observe physical cheating ). It took a lot of pushback with Apple to be allowed to “not allow screenshots”. Which, I think, is pretty great that they originally pushed back, but then understood the product.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by AmericanChopper on Saturday July 08, 2023 @11:48AM (#36645505)
The way Apple have implemented region localisation on the App Store is very bad. You basically have to nuke your whole account to change regions, and that includes losing all your subscriptions (if you have any annual subscriptions that’s just too bad for you). So if you spend time between two counties, and need a region locked app in each one, there’s actually no workable solution.

Your explanation for the anti-screen shot DRM doesn’t hold up very well either. I don’t know of any streaming app that doesn’t also have a website that I can take screenshots (as well as full screen captures) on, so it’s clearly not a content licensing requirement.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by charcircuit on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:06PM (#36645686)
>I don’t know of any streaming app that doesn’t also have a website that I can take screenshots (as well as full screen captures) on

Your browser does not have DRM support which typically means you are not sent the full quality videos. And not all media apps have a website. Not every app that I am talking about are from massive companies that can support making apps and a website.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by AmericanChopper on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:27PM (#36645924)
> Your browser does not have DRM support which typically means you are not sent the full quality videos

To take this argument seriously I’d need you to provide some examples. I use some of the bis streaming services, and they all stream full high quality media to my laptop. Which are the ones that don’t?

> And not all media apps have a website.

Again, examples? Every streaming app that’s ever blocked me from taking a screenshot has also had a streaming website. What portion of the market licenses content with a requirement to use DRM to block screenshots?

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by dagmx on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:40PM (#36646091)
Netflix won’t send your browser high resolution video unless your browser supports Widevine. Typically it’ll restrict you to 480p iirc.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by AmericanChopper on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:45PM (#36646138)
Which doesn’t prevent you from taking screenshots… (and doesn’t make it especially difficult to just capture the whole stream either)

This whole screenshot point is silly to begin with, because screenshots aren’t a form of piracy or copyright infringement.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by dagmx on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:47PM (#36646794)
It prevents you from taking high resolution recordings , whether they’re screenshots or video.

You either take a low resolution capture or the DRM layer prevents content from being displayed when recording.

The legality of the subject is not something I’m talking about. You just asked for examples and I provided them.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by AmericanChopper on Saturday July 08, 2023 @02:17PM (#36647182)
For starters, it does nothing at all to prevent taking screen shots. Which is what this thread is about.

As for high quality video capture, it is trivially easy to do. How do you think high quality copies of Netflix-only content ends up on the pirate bay they same day it comes out?

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by progbits on Saturday July 08, 2023 @02:36PM (#36647378)
Yes it does. HD Netflix in Chrome, Edge or Safari will result in black rectangle when you screenshot it.
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by dagmx on Saturday July 08, 2023 @03:07PM (#36647671)
Yes it does prevent taking screenshots of high resolution playback. Your options become low resolution capture or nothing.

High quality captures are still possible if you connect an external capture device coupled with something that provides the necessary drm authentication or you need a software based drm defeat.

Neither are “trivial” as you say.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by AmericanChopper on Sunday July 09, 2023 @04:10AM (#36652614)
An HDMI splitter completely removes HDCP, so if you want to do a hardware approach, that doesn't require any software at all. If you don't want to use some cheap product from amazon, just run Netflix in a desktop VM. Both of these options are very trivial to implement, no complicated software bypass at all. Also remember that for piracy to occur, you only need one person to go to this very small level of effort to get a torrent uploaded. These protections are useless, and achieve nothing other than bothering legitimate users.

Also, here's a screenshot I just took of a Netflix show (it's 1080p, but still...) https://imgur.com/a/evJjf06

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by petesergeant on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:50PM (#36646826)
Yah, this works terribly for expats. A warning should be sufficient for non-DRM content, and for DRM content just use the Netflix model of “we’ll show you content you can see based on where you are right now”.

Being locked out of Starbucks Thailand app because I don’t want to change my whole iTunes account is ridiculous.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by NoRelToEmber on Saturday July 08, 2023 @05:34PM (#36649002)
Your answer amounts to "Yes, both those things exist to the detriment of the user, but they were requested for the benefit of corporate app writers, so it's okay that the device the user supposedly owns obeys someone else."
Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by charcircuit on Saturday July 08, 2023 @08:34PM (#36650180)
>to the detriment of the user

Except these features are not to the detriment of users. If apps were not region locked at the store either they just won't be in the store or they will implement the region lock themselves. Similarly DRM is seemless for users. The users get the same media watching experience they expect, but the content is securely played to stop people from making illegal copies.

>the device the user supposedly owns obeys someone else

The user may own the device, but they don't own a movie that the device is playing. Your device isn't obeying someone else. DRM is a feature that lets your device handle other people's content in a safe manor.

Re:When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed ... by fmx on Saturday July 08, 2023 @03:29PM (#36647881)
XPrivacy was great, but apps would regularly crash when I denied some permissions - so apparently it was not faking data well enough. It got so bad that I would never just click "deny", but always "temporarily deny" first. Then, if the app worked, I would deny permanently. If it crashed I'd have to figure out the minimum set of permissions I could get away with granting.