It is much more convenient and I highly doubt anybody that can splice a couple of wires sees that ability as a means to keep the competition out. But there are drawbacks and you should be aware of them. When doing high current and tri-phase connections I will use a wire nut, otherwise I use a Wago.
I know that wire nuts can sometimes have a better failure rate when tested at much higher currents than either connector is rated for but this is equivalent of ingredients causing disease when you consume 1000 times more than is typical.
Or look at how romex/NM (doesn't) hold up to mild rodent activity.
I'm not saying that Wagos are in the same category as receptacle backstabs. The point is there are definitely quality/safety reasons to choose one approved method over another.
We had a mouse chew the romex going to the receptacle for our dishwasher (as well as the drain line). He must’ve gotten quite the shock, since the breaker tripped. The wire was charred and had exposed copper.
Motors and other large inductive loads are especially nasty in this respect, which is why there are several 'curves' in use for ground fault interruptors. The most common, the B curve will do a max or 3 to 5x for a short period of time before it kicks in, but a C or D curve can go much, much higher. And then that contact resistance (which wasn't such a huge problem so far) suddenly is a problem. Now you're generating serious Wattage in a small space that has no good way to get rid of the heat. Imagine an elevator motor or a shop lift or or something like that. This sort of application is where I would never use a Wago. But for regular low power stuff in my house I use them all the time, lights, bedroom outlets and so on. But my 17 KW Solar inverter is using crimped on joints and I checked the torque on the screws in the plug to make sure it's all up to spec. Those are not things to mess around with and hope it will hold.
If you want to have some fun take a FLIR across an older exposed installation, it will definitely help to visualize what contact resistance will do.
Prove that. There is no evidence for that if they are used within spec - and if there was, UL and CSA would immediately pull their listings. There is however, plenty of FUD on the internet about Wagos being dangerous, even though plenty of tests have shown this is not true. For example, this test which showed a five-connector Wago running at maximum of rated limit releases about 1W of heat. A little warm, nothing dangerous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgjo36-jaFY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhFwcEcNF2I
Also, you should look into how common electrical fires are in Germany if you really want to prove your case. Wago popularity over there is insane. Wire nuts are viewed as archaic and most homeowners don't even know they exist.
But Wago's really do have higher contact resistance, can have higher temps and I've personally seen more than one case of a molten Wago, including one where the whole metal part had molten its way out of the container, as well as one where the tabs had gone missing and were all locked in the 'open' position (no idea how that came to be).
I do a lot of house renovations, have installed a whole pile of solar gear (including some pretty heavy duty inverters), and have installed a complete machine shop. You're more than welcome to question all of that but I'm not in your pay and I don't need to prove anything, my personal experience is good enough for a forum comment.
Wagos are hard to fuck up.
That's why wire nuts cause fires and wagos don't. If I had a dollar for every wire nut I've ever fished out of the bottom of an electrical box, I'd be able to buy a nice dinner for the whole family, whereas I'd leave the dollar store empty handed if someone had forced those numptys to use wagos.
> Wagos are hard to fuck up.
This we readily agree on, but I've seen both being fucked up enough to go over the electrical system with a FLIR for any new property purchase. The stuff you find like that you won't believe, including dead rodents, completely burned out junction boxes, arcing so strong that you could smell the ozone meters away from the junction box (essentially a matter of time), wire stripped bare over ridiculously long distances and so on. Other code violations such as using only black 1.5 mm^2 for a whole installation and non in-ground approved cable buried a couple of inches under a driveway.
My advice is to use both, each for their strengths. If you're wiring up an electric motor of any sizeable power I'd definitely do that using the best connection possible, so a crimped screw terminal if that's a possibility, a wire nut if it isn't and a Wago if there isn't anything else. But I'd check the drop across the Wago before calling it a day, just in case. Start-up currents are pretty nasty. Also: anything behind a type C or D breaker.
Can't agree on this at all. You twist the wires together in the direction the nut threads on, then screw it on. After it's done give each leg a light pull to make sure it's secure.
Where and how are people fucking this up? I could see using the wrong size, leaving stripped wire outside the nut or stuffing way too many wires into one nut, but other than that I'm baffled.
- too small a diameter wire to properly engage the thread
- uneven insulation so only the tops get joined
- not enough twist so only the first couple of threads engage
- stranded wire cut through completely by the threads
- wrong kind of wire
(aluminum! which really needs its particular kind of connectors and is fortunately phased out but you may come across it in older installations).
- too many wires for the size nut (usually 5 is the max, depending on thickness)
- re-using oxidized wire ends because there isn't enough wire length
- wires not twisted at all before applying the nut
- leaving out the wire nut spring (!)
(presumably to make room for more wires...)
- spring upside down
- untwisting the nut and the spring, then untwisting the wires to add another splice
- bending the copper too often (metal fatigue)
- not inspected after twisting it on
- too much insulation stripped
- wire end damaged during insulation stripping
- wires twisted in the wrong direction
And so on... In comparison some of these will apply to Wagos but in general they have fewer ways of doing things wrong and adding another splice is much easier with a Wago. DIY electrical is great, it saves a ton of money. But the kind of stuff you come across can make your hair stand on end. The house I live in came with an electrical installation that was downright dangerous, I live here for 5 years now and I think I've fixed most of it but every now and then a new surprise pops up. Recently: a wall socket stucco'd over but before they stucco'd it over a piece of flex wire (twin strand) was connected through a groove cut into the wall to a brand new in-wall grounded socket of which the ground was left unconnected. Whoever made that (I suspect the previous occupant) is a complete idiot when it comes to electricity.
But I'm with you, I'm happy with Wago. When I'm doing the work myself, that's what I use. Though I do use wire nuts for my big wire connections (6 awg). They probably don't even have lever nuts for that size, but I didn't look.
This make plumbing and wiring easier to repair; vermin easier to ensnare; improve safety from wildfires; and force every window to be a nice bay window with seating.
Cue an increase in the number of DIYers and toddlers needing to be rescued after they have somehow managed to fall into the gap e.g. while working / playing in the attic.
Not sure how it would work from an insulation perspective, either.
But it wastes a lot of space & is expensive
If it's worth it to the owner, exterior walls will be framed with 2x6 instead of 2x4 to allow more space for insulation.
Not sure if that’s a Japanese design, or where it came from.
(Asking for myself, because I agree with both of you - I hate having to open my lathe and plaster walls, but I also don't relish the idea of blatant access panels).
Maybe 8"x8" panels with electrical receptacles and data ports integrated so they're also functional...
Basically have a cable run behind there and one of these every so often (especially at junctions).
Usually for networking or audio/video but I’ve run power cables like that too.
https://ariavent.com/products/flush-access-panel-luxe
Quick video showing it in 'action': https://www.youtube.com/shorts/nVo2pxSHCR0
A single story home does make some things simple, but it is still a pain with the insulation. On top of that, all the old plumbing goes through the slab making access difficult.
What plastic can beat that?
This is odd given that in a lot of places, a home owner can run their whole electrical, and the inspection is just a dude plugging shit in to the receptacles.
Also, are most modern water heaters not just a standard plug in? Even my dishwasher, which was a curiously long hold out, doesn’t have direct power any more.
Around here, home owners are not allowed to plumb, not even with inspection. Plumbing permits are only given to plumbers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power
Three phase circuits are 120 degrees out of phase.
But completely agreed that three phase 400V seems crazy!
Ok, help from our new common friend:
Yes, your statement is essentially correct. In the United States, residential electrical supply is typically a single-phase, 240-volt system that is "split" into two 120-volt legs. Each of these legs are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, which allows for both 120-volt and 240-volt circuits within the home. This arrangement is often referred to as "split-phase" electricity. It's not technically two-phase because a true two-phase system would have two waves offset by 90 degrees, not 180.
In the US houses get 1 of the 3 phases. That phase is split in half, and so each phase is 180 degrees. This is different from 3 phase power where each phase is 120 degrees. 3 phase is good for a few things, but for a water heater it doesn't matter, and most of the things 3 phase is good for you today will run off of an inverter for speed control which in turn can run off of single phase (3 phase is still better but only because you can use smaller capacitors)
Tankless water heaters are much more common in rental apartments, and Germany has one of the highest quote of people living in rented apartments. And if space is at a premium, of course tankless heaters are preferable. Apartments are also the reason why electric stoves (again, using 400V tri-phase) are so popular in Germany.
More capable options exist if needed, but I have never seen them in a residential setting.
[0] The 30 indicates that it supports a peak wattage of 30.
The kitchen and laundry appliances are sometimes moved with the homeowner or tenant, but not the water heater. Also a plug can make it easier to pull out for cleaning.
On the upside, even a small studio apartment usually has enough space and an extra water hookup for at least a washing machine, so no dealing with other apartment residents or a public laundromat for laundry. Dryers are usually condensing; no need for an outside vent.
Until the last few years, short tenancies were unusual for Germans; in the little building we rented in before we bought our house, the other tenants had been renting there for 20-40 years! Given the terms of our contract, I gathered that they must have had very small, if any, rent increases written into their unrestricted contracts, and the only way to get them out was if the building owner decided to live in one of the units herself.
But I'll grant that appliances are probably moved more often than water heaters are.
What does this mean? Literally replacing all the overhead lights with a ceiling fan w/light attached?
All the overhead lights outside of the kitchen and showers were cheap "boob lights." The kitchen and shower lights are LED pucks that mount flush to a shallow box and kind of look like recessed lights. First we replaced all of the boob lights with wider LED panel lights with a warm color temperature. While doing this I noticed something about the light boxes in the centers of the living room and bedrooms: the boxes were mounted so they are centered over a joist, meaning you can screw a fan directly into the joist. They also had two hot conductors running from the switch box. One was colored red and the other was colored black. The red one was wired from the switch to the light, and the black one was capped at both ends. They were set up to have fans installed without any modification to the box.
Depending on jurisdiction, they can. In Germany, you can train to be an "Elektrofachkraft für festgelegte Tätigkeiten" - i.e. an electrician trains your staff to do a specific task, like hooking up the water heater.
The problem is, plumbers already have more than enough work. They could do that technically but they don't because they want to move to the next job site as fast as they can.
In large buildings things are done different. Architects spend more time designing exactly where the pipes, HVAC, and wires go. Then the trades people work to spec, and they can thus work in any order so long as their parts go where they are told to. This is a lot more effort/cost though, so it isn't worth it for a small house but is critical for something large. A small house turns out to have plenty of space for everyone to design as they go, and thus this is cheaper. For a large building there are a few places where there is barely enough space for everything that must go through that spot so you better ensure upfront there is enough space.
So yeah, you're right, the new methods and parts make for very fast construction but the maintenance and repairability/reusability is trending toward zero.
Just like everything else these days, I guess.
Many Florida residents have their second set of pipes running through their attics.
PEX may not have the lifespan of copper, but it sure is easier to repipe.
When/if I remodel my bathrooms I have to have this done due to my existing galvanized steel pipes being horrendously brittle and filled with 70 years of gunk. Ah, the joys of a house built in the 1950s in Florida.
Yes, this is the standard now for an number of reasons:
* because it is far easier to cut damaged sections of PVC on site and assemble replacements than it is to cut metal piping
* PVC is wildly less expensive than the equivalent length of metal piping, because it is used in a huge number of applications
* PVC is non-reactive and does not corrode like metal
and lastly, threaded pipe connections significantly decrease the throughput of a pipeline, reducing available water pressure at the endpoint. It is basic best practice to limit where threaded connections are used so that you can maintain uniform pressure across the whole unit.
Well, cos they didn't get the license. There is nothing really stopping plumber from getting electrician's license.
Don't forget the even earlier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lustron_house
Saying that, in the early 20th century there wasn't too much to the electrical and the house probably had basic plumbing for a single bathroom and a kitchen sink plus radiators and a boiler that was probably onsite oil fed. A modern home has far more to consider including insulation, far more electrical and plumbing, HVAC, etc.
I think there’s a massive opportunity in modular bathrooms. I’ve seen them done amazingly badly (think: the plastic cube badly perched in a corner of your Victorian seaside hotel, in which you have to crouch under the shower, while it hoses down the toilet paper), I’ve seen them done so well you wouldn’t have a clue you were in a room delivered in a box. The latter, I’ve only seen in Latvia, by a Latvian company - but I think the concept has legs.
This sort of thing: https://taplanes.co.uk/
It's a bit different when the modules are part of a hotel/apartment block that's entirely built using a modular system. That's common enough in city centre hotels and motels where they're a single full-sized room and nobody can tell the difference.
If it became common I'm sure crews will switch to using a crane for the roof, just because the crane will be there to lift the bathroom in place anyway. However someone needs to start making the factory bathroom first and convince builders to use it.
1) they are heavy, the actual structural design needs to take this weight into account
2) since they have an "own" floor you either have a step to enter them or you need to have a somewhat thicker underfloor on the rest of the house
3) since they have an "own" ceiling, the internal height will be smaller than the rest of the rooms (here in Italy this is not an issue from the techincal norms as rooms are minimum 2.70 m and bathrooms and corridors can be only 2.40)
4) since there is the need of connecting the internal utilities, electricity is the lesser problem, but typically you have two or three (cold and hot + in some cases circulating) running water pipes, two (at least) drain pipes, two or more venting pipes and the radiator (or under floor) heating, you need some additional space on the outside or some (not really pleasing to the eye) boxes on one wall or in the floor (or both)
In practice the only kind of building where they make sense are new multi-storey, multi-apartment buildings and hotels, hospitals, prisons, etc., and even then usually they are not usually much cheaper, they are only much faster and easier to put up, and definitely have an advantage for "luxury" bathrooms where local workmanship capable of a high quality work are not available or cost too much.
An example, this is an Italian builder of such "pods" with experience in international projects:
https://www.eurocomponents.eu/en/portfolio
https://www.eurocomponents.eu/en/modular-bathrooms-for-inter...
I agree overall with your point though.
Usually these pods are lifted by a crane and "inserted" in the building (talking of reinforced concrete buildings) after the structure has been built (before building the outer walls).
Once they are on the floor they are moved manually on carts/wheels attached to the pod structure, so it is much easier if everything is at the same level, the lowered level of the deck (only where the pod goes) would add another complication in the moving/placing.
With the advent of underfloor heating the thickness of the screed is increased anyway (compared to the old buildings) so the "step" is not anymore a problem as it was years ago.
Under this definition of housing US housing isn't speculative either. It's only the land that goes up in value. It's just that earthquakes and tsunamis aren't as frequent and powerful here and the zoning laws are more arcane here. (as well as some other reasons related to the speed of development of these countries). Japan is one of the least afordable places to live in the world. That is in large part the reason why the population is declining. But nobody is speculating on US bathrooms.
>But nobody is speculating on US bathrooms.
I've got two words for you, man: rainhead shower. (Or "in-floor heating" for the Northeast. ...I guess that's 3 words.)
This video shows a full renovation, but if you’re only replacing a broken component then you’re looking at less work https://youtu.be/8E5lH_qppWg
I think generally the point of these is that you’re a lot less affected by skill level of those installing everything, so even really shitty apartments have good infrastructure. Million dollar homes in the US have worse plumbing than stuff I had in starter apartments in Tokyo (not universal but!).
And the boxing up means that your “wet area” is limited (Japan is generally very humid so mold is a constant worry). But I’m not an expert, and everything I’m saying might be totally off base.
These guys? (If so, then, woah, this is the first time in literally years that Google Search has successfully returned a first-result win.)
There is more than that though, as the floor needs to be designed for where the pipes and wires of the prefab bathroom come out. Not impossible, but not easy either. A lot of modern houses are adjusted on sight for where the pipes have to be as the architect doesn't check if a pipe and beam are designed to go in the same place.. (in large building the architect will check, but not in something small.)
I'd also add Viega to the list, it is well accepted in many places and makes copper soldering unnecessary to join copper pipes in many applications by instead using a crimped fitting that only takes a few seconds to crimp with a power tool, it's a game changer for plumbers working with copper and even carbon steel pipes up to 4 inches in diameter.
In retrospect, doing the job myself that way wouldn't have been too bad. The sharkbite connectors seem pretty reliable. I used some when I first bought this place and they've been installed for about 20 years now. I still prefer the traditional sweat joints, but maybe it's just not worth the investment of time?
I wonder if any builders are using this approach - solder in the crawl space and behind drywall, but shark bite in accessible areas.
I think maybe 90% of the benefit could be had by simply having good, efficient design in the first place with the same traditional connections. It is unbelievable how much quicker it is to build when all the plumbing is stacked within a small footprint, rather than running all over the place.
If it is just "mold plastic differently so it can be put together quickly" and doesn't add much cost, it is worth it, but if you prefab walls cost more than raw materials + labour to build something similar... and on top of that are less elastic (just certain width and height etc.).
The biggest innovations to construction are probably to be had in better/faster/easier plumbing and electrical connections, making it faster and more reliable to install all the fixtures. Being able to plumb and install a whole bathroom in a couple of hours instead of most of a day while reducing the odds of needing rework would be a decent boost. We've seen some improvement in this already though with things like PEX and Wago, I imagine even more modular designs can improve this even more. The challenge with this is actually getting adoption and approval for some of this stuff.