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Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by mcv on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:37PM (#36527099)
> Lifting one group up is almost always at the expense of other groups, which is isomorphic to punishment.

Not necessarily. Life is not a zero sum game.

Who is hurt by better funding for schools in poor neighbourhoods? Who is hurt by training cops to not shoot first and ask questions later? Who is hurt by encouraging home ownership by black people?

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by sokoloff on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:44PM (#36527165)
> Who is hurt by better funding for schools in poor neighbourhoods?

Whatever that money would otherwise have been spent on is harming the recipient of that now foregone benefit. If you raise taxes to do it, taxpayers are harmed.

> Who is hurt by encouraging home ownership by black people?

If home ownership is a good thing, whoever would have otherwise bought those marginal houses is harmed.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by fugalfervor on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:10PM (#36527490)
> If you raise taxes to do it, taxpayers are harmed.

This is not true. If I, a taxpayer, want my taxes raised for the sake of extending equality to a historically and currently oppressed group, then I am not harmed.

If you, a taxpayer, disagree with the notion of restorative justice, I posit that your overall happiness would be helped more by empathy and less by "lower taxes".

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by seneca on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:16PM (#36528145)
> This is not true. If I, a taxpayer, want my taxes raised for the sake of extending equality to a historically and currently oppressed group, then I am not harmed.

If you want your money used to pay for reparations you can donate to a charity with aims aligned with that desire. No one is arguing about what you do with your money.

> If you, a taxpayer, disagree with the notion of restorative justice, I posit that your overall happiness would be helped more by empathy and less by "lower taxes".

A functioning society requires accepting other people have different priorities and values from yours.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by fugalfervor on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:22PM (#36528196)
> If you want your money used to pay for reparations you can donate to a charity with aims aligned with that desire. No one is arguing about what you do with your money.

I can also advocate for the state to do it on my behalf. I prefer that solution, because a larger amount of resources can be allocated.

> A functioning society requires accepting other people have different priorities and values from yours.

I accept this, but the values expressed disturb me.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by tristor on Thursday June 29, 2023 @11:49PM (#36530303)
> I can also advocate for the state to do it on my behalf. I prefer that solution, because a larger amount of resources can be allocated.

The only reason a larger amount of resources can be allocated is because you are advocating for using state violence to force people who don’t agree with you to also pay for your ideas. That’s what taxes are, fundamentally.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:37PM (#36528331)
> A functioning society requires accepting other people have different priorities and values from yours

a functioning democracy requires accepting that, in the event that your values conflict with those of the majority, your values lose and theirs win

we saw on January 6th in the US what happens when a loud minority can't accept that

unfortunately, some are under the misunderstanding that democracy means all ideas are equal and have equal value, or indeed universally have positive value

it does not, and they do not

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by shadowgovt on Thursday June 29, 2023 @11:44PM (#36530278)
To tune this a bit: our society operates under a rule of law with checks and balances (and some bedrock law in the Constitution that is significantly harder to modify than the rest of it) because a system as simple as "in the event that your values conflict with those of the majority, your values lose and theirs win" is known as a "tyranny of the majority" and is not particularly desirable.

If the majority says, for example, some race is inferior, that's not sufficient to anchor the law and we have a 14th Amendment to protect against such abuse.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by ImPostingOnHN on Friday June 30, 2023 @01:03AM (#36530702)
to elaborate: our society does indeed consist of checks and balances, and part of that is ensuring that, in the event that the values of the minority conflict with the values of the majority, we don't have a "tyranny of the minority", or minority rule

if the minority says, for example, some race is inferior, that's even less sufficient to anchor the law, and insufficient to overrule the majority saying it isn't

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by shadowgovt on Friday June 30, 2023 @07:41AM (#36533164)
I completely agree and I cannot think of a single instance of that happening in the history of the United States, with a possible exception of the nation's ongoing collapse into oligarchy and rule by that minority.
Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by soundnote on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:47AM (#36535843)
"You aren't harmed because you could theoretically have my politics and priorities" is a take.

Dissent from your politics does not require a lack of empathy, and having your politics doesn't automatically mean having it.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by namaria on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:06PM (#36527440)
>Whatever that money would otherwise have been spent on is harming the recipient of that now foregone benefit.

This would only make sense if the amount of welfare for rich people weren't outrageously high in the form of regressive income taxation, non meaningful wealth taxation, corporate tax breaks and subsidies, loan forgiveness programs for business owners etc etc all that on top of a nearly trillion dollar budget for military kit that sees what 40% usage?

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by hokumguru on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:19PM (#36528163)
We actually spend more per year on paying off our national debt, which has been used to fund many social programs, than our military.

Great and all but we really can’t afford any of this.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by sokoloff on Thursday June 29, 2023 @08:00PM (#36528596)
Paying interest on our national debt is more accurate than paying off.

There’s no practical sense in which we’re paying it off nor even paying it down.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by HWR_14 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @09:00PM (#36529145)
The national debt hasn't really risen because of social programs. It has primarily risen because of military spending.
Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by peyton on Thursday June 29, 2023 @09:16PM (#36529309)
That’s strange because the 2022 deficit alone exceeds defense spending by a factor of ~2. DoD spending was up ~10% since 2012, which social security spending was up ~50%.
Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by HWR_14 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @09:58PM (#36529619)
Social Security spending is from a dedicated levy, which generates more income than it costs.

In 2012, the US was fighting two wars, so the fact that DoD spending didn't go down by 2022 is indicative of the problem.

It's also misleading to use the few years when there was substantial pandemic related spending as indicative of the US's normal spending habits.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by semiquaver on Thursday June 29, 2023 @11:22PM (#36530147)
> Social Security spending is from a dedicated levy, which generates more income than it costs

Your information is out of date. Costs have exceeded tax income since 2010 and have exceeded total income (tax plus interest) since 2021.

The OASI trust fund that pays social security retirement benefits is projected to have a $53B (3.8%) actuarial shortfall this year, up from $40B last year. The trustees project this shortfall will increase every year thereafter until the fund is completely depleted ten years from now (assuming no change in law)

https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TRSUM/tr23summary.pdf

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by HWR_14 on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:09AM (#36534188)
Do your numbers still hold with the vastly higher interest rates today compared to 2021?
Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by semiquaver on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:38AM (#36534666)
Yes, those numbers are all from the document I linked, the most recent annual report released this May.
Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by mcv on Friday June 30, 2023 @03:34AM (#36531694)
The US national debt has risen because of extreme tax cuts. It was pretty low until Reagan, who cut a lot of taxes and had the debt start spiralling out of control, yet most social programs started way before Reagan.

The military spending that really added to the debt were primarily the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by Denzel on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:02PM (#36527384)
You missed the part where it’s not a zero-sum game. If you’re interested in the economic concepts behind why an economy is a positive-sum game in an open system, look up: production possibilities frontier (PPF) and comparative advantage.

An economy would become zero-sum if we ran up against the limits of the universe. Until then, rest assured that opportunity can grow for both sides in a transaction.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by chii on Friday June 30, 2023 @01:57AM (#36531050)
The whole economy is indeed nonzero sum, but the topic is not the entire economy, but allocation of limited dollars between different groups. It is zero sum here in this limited context.
Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by mcv on Friday June 30, 2023 @03:30AM (#36531666)
Investing in education has a very high ROI. Investing in better education in poor neighbourhoods will actually save you money in the long run. The fact that that is not happening is what's really hurting people.
Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by shadowgovt on Thursday June 29, 2023 @11:27PM (#36530181)
This is a very similar argument to "piracy is a moral ill because it deprives corporations and artists of money that would otherwise be spent on them." And it falls apart for similar reasons.

When more people are capable of buying houses, more houses are built to meet the demand.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by antisthenes on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:29PM (#36527716)
> Not necessarily. Life is not a zero sum game.

Life is a zero-sum game in way more ways than it is not, especially on the scale of a typical human life-span or important decisions that people make.

This is a bad trope that just won't die.

In fact you can see a lot of negative outcomes in spheres like housing and medicine precisely because of zero-sum issues.

Re:Affirmative action at US colleges has been banned by notSupplied on Friday June 30, 2023 @07:44PM (#36544207)
College admissions at elite universities, what this SCOTUS case is about, is zero sum.