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Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by Kye on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:55PM (#36514448)
Diesel is already taxed at a higher rate than gasoline.
Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by KennyBlanken on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @08:48PM (#36514899)
A diesel truck that has three times the pressure on the road and easily ten to fifteen times the total weight, while getting about 1/3rd the gas mileage of the average US passenger vehicle.

Given the (unsupported) claim that a EV wears the road significantly more than a gasoline car for what amounts to shouldn't we expect that a vehicle exerting three times the pressure on the road should pay more per mile than 'just' 3x what you and I do in our gas passenger cars?

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by Kon-Peki on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:29PM (#36515190)
> Given the (unsupported) claim that a EV wears the road significantly more than a gasoline car

Wear on the road is a function of weight. It’s really simple and uncontroversial. An EV generally weighs more than an ICE of equivalent size.

Hopefully, the federal push to install tons of charging stations will usher in useful EVs with smaller batteries, lowering weight.

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by illiac786 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:28AM (#36517483)
I still think this is BS, considering trucks are causing 2500 times [0] more damage than gas cars and are certainly not bringing tax income proportionally to this. Why should EV then?

[0] https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-...

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by autoexecdotbat on Thursday June 29, 2023 @08:53AM (#36519714)
This seems like a weird argument to make. We either pay collectively more for taxes for the roads we use, or collectively we pay WAY more for food, materials, and basically everything else if we tax trucks proportionally. Large trucks are carrying stuff, and the cost of that stuff is going to be directly associated with the cost of logistics.

Yes, some states haven't figured out what that looks like, but I really don't think the right answer is to dump all that cost on truckers. I would rather pay more for my car's operational tax, increased EV tax or existing gas tax on ICE, than disproportionately affect the price of groceries for someone living paycheck to paycheck.

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by 542354234235 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @09:43AM (#36520285)
Doesn’t this assume that the cost will not effect behavior? If trucking logistics becomes more expensive to properly account for the externalities, wouldn’t companies be more motivated to find more cost efficient methods. I’m sure there are plenty of items that could be shipped by rail, but aren’t because trucking is currently cheaper for the individual company, while the cost in road damage, pollution, greenhouse gasses, increased traffic, etc. are paid by everyone else.

As for disproportionately affecting the poor, sales taxes (like on groceries and other goods) and excise taxes (like on gas) are exactly the regressive taxation systems that burden the very people living paycheck to paycheck. Shifting the tax burden from skimming off the top for the people spending all their income on daily necessities, towards companies paying the full cost of their chosen operations, would give the poor more buying power and allow market forces to find and utilize the most effective and efficient means to provide services instead of the cheapest means that are only cheap because they are subsidized by everyone else.

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by illiac786 on Friday June 30, 2023 @01:28AM (#36530855)
I think you misunderstood my argument. I'm not saying vehicles should be taxed proportionally to road usage, on this I don't have an opinion. I'm saying either you do this for all vehicles or none. You cannot say "EV vehicles pay proportionally but trucks not" without clearly being biased against EV (whatever the reasons).
Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by ffgjgf1 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @04:46AM (#36517971)
The increase in damage due to the higher weight is insignificant if semis and other heavy vehicles are allowed on that road.

Also you could just get a slightly smaller cars since EVs tend to be a bit more space efficient.

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by mensetmanusman on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:04AM (#36518860)
Semis aren't typically driving down suburbia or in left lanes on highways.

Noting the increased road damage isn't an attack on EVs, it's a call to be smarter about infrastructure:.

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by parl_match on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:49PM (#36515342)
> Given the (unsupported) claim that a EV wears the road significantly more than a gasoline car

This is an unambiguously, heavily supported claim. By states, car makers, the federal government, and third party analysis firms. It's incredibly uncontroversial. It's even got a name, and associated math: it's called the Fourth Power Law https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-...

> shouldn't we expect that a vehicle exerting three times the pressure on the road should pay more per mile than 'just' 3x what you and I do in our gas passenger cars

Gas taxes make up a relatively small part of the cost of gas. If you run the numbers, you'll find that it's maybe closer to around 3.5-4x for most passenger EVs. At scale, that becomes a problem, but at the individual level, it's still a relatively small amount - and certainly less than the cost of gas.

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by tpxl on Thursday June 29, 2023 @04:30AM (#36517861)
> This is an unambiguously, heavily supported claim.

Your source claims no such thing. EVs may be heavier than equivalent ICE cars, but an electric Smart (the brand) is going to do less damage than a loaded Ford F150.

Tax the weight, not a shitty proxy for weight.

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by bequanna on Thursday June 29, 2023 @09:05AM (#36519846)
…and an F150 uses more fuel than a car.

Your comparison is misleading. Compare an ICE car to an EV car, not the lightest EV to the heaviest ICE.

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by tanjtanjtanj on Thursday June 29, 2023 @09:55AM (#36520419)
That was exactly their point. You can't use 'EV' to mean heavier vehicle across the board.
Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by throwbadubadu on Thursday June 29, 2023 @04:33AM (#36517885)
> This is an unambiguously, heavily supported claim.

It is pretty much insignificant increase on road wear vs what trucks put on it?

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by literalAardvark on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:28AM (#36518240)
Yes, but HGVs don't go onto residential roads.

If you meant SUVs or pick-ups by trucks yeah, insignificant and a bad proxy for weight anyway. No point in taxing EVs when what you need to tax is weight.

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by raverbashing on Thursday June 29, 2023 @04:54AM (#36518011)
The fourth power law is uncontroversial, the fact that on average (or just take per model) EVs wear more than your "average ICE car" (especially as SUVs are the average now) is not
Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by logifail on Thursday June 29, 2023 @08:05AM (#36519319)
> Gas taxes make up a relatively small part of the cost of gas

Over in the EU it seems that taxes and duties represent at least half of the cost of petrol, more in some member states

https://www.statista.com/statistics/937796/pump-price-and-ta...

Q: How are governments going to replace this?

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by rs999gti on Thursday June 29, 2023 @08:42AM (#36519601)
> Q: How are governments going to replace this?

Add a supplemental registration tax to EVs and hybrids to make up the cost of consuming less fuel. Of course, taxes never go away, so enjoy this new tax as we enter an electric future.

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by logifail on Thursday June 29, 2023 @09:02AM (#36519811)
> Add a supplemental registration tax to EVs and hybrids to make up the cost of consuming less fuel

Q: How much fuel duty and tax does the average ICE vehicle (or rather, its driver) contribute?

I did some back-of-napkin math and came up with a figure of €500

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by dghughes on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:37AM (#36518680)
I used to have a Dodge 2500 diesel it weighed 4,000kg. For comparison an EV Tesla Model X is 2,500kg. a non-EV Toyota Camry is 1,500kg.

I still have the dents in my driveway pavement!

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by mnw21cam on Thursday June 29, 2023 @09:52AM (#36520395)
"Fuel duty is currently levied at a flat rate of 52.95p per litre for both petrol and diesel, while VAT at 20% is then charged on both the product price and the duty."

https://racfoundation.org/data/percentage-uk-pump-price-whic...

Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by mminer237 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @10:06AM (#36520516)
In the US, where Utah is located, diesel is taxed at a higher rate: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Gasoline...
Re:To Save Money on Insurance, Drivers Agree to Intrusive Mo... by Kye on Thursday June 29, 2023 @12:54PM (#36523173)
I figured it was implied since we were talking about the US, but context has a way of collapsing in threaded conversations. Thanks for bringing it back around.