How substantial? I don't think most people really understand the economics of being Canadian right now compared to the US.

Right off the top you're earning CAD instead of USD, so with the current exchange rate that's a ~25% reduction in purchasing power.

On top of that, it's a smaller country, with fewer large and wealthy industries. Salaries are not only CAD but also the actual dollar numbers tend to be smaller. EG I've seen listings for roles in the States offering 200k USD, but similar roles in Canada offer 120k CAD, which is less than 100k USD. That's a "pretty substantial" pay cut if you want it. It's also not like they make up for lower salaries with other perks like super high vacation time or anything either.

Then you're living in a country where we have some of the most expensive real estate in the world in Toronto and Vancouver, which has effects in other markets as well.

Also everything is just more expensive here, with the exception of Health Care I suppose. Groceries are absurdly expensive right now, but even when they were cheaper they weren't anywhere near as cheap as my friends pay in the US. The cheapest pound of butter you can find is $6.50 CAD right now. Same with Gas for your car, insurance, etc. All of the tech we buy is more expensive too, and not just "cost of exchange rate", it's always just higher.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy here and in a lot of ways I am glad I chose to stay rather than chasing higher salaries in the States. I'm just trying to illustrate that there are definitely struggles here too and it will very likely be a very substantial pay cut to move here and get a job here. More substantial than you probably think.

tl;dr: It's very expensive to live here in a lot of ways, our salaries don't really compete in a numerical way even before factoring in exchange rate.

Butter prices are not a good representative of Canadian grocery prices. Canada has a really stupid milk quota system making milk, butter & cheese more expensive than elsewhere.

But most other groceries are cheaper in Canada than in the US. For example, the average cost of a loaf of bread in Canada is CAD3.50, in the US it's USD3.50, 33% more expensive.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...

Most things are cheaper in Canada than in the US, mostly because the average wage is cheaper in Canada than the US.

But the things that are more expensive are the biggies, like rent & taxes.

> But most other groceries are cheaper in Canada than in the US. For example, the average cost of a loaf of bread in Canada is CAD3.50, in the US it's USD3.50, 33% more expensive.

I suspect this does not tell the whole story. Sticker price is one thing but how often does stuff go on on sale, what volume of coupons and other savings are readily available?

Maybe I'm completely off base here, but I've discussed this quite a bit with my friends who live in the states and overall they pay way less than I do for very similar items. And it's not some extreme couponing thing, it's just "these are buy one get one all the time", which is a rare occurrence here.

It's likely that numbeo gets their data from the official inflation basket sources, and those baskets sample transactions to get the prices that people actually pay, rather than sticker prices.

BLS data states $1.95 for a loaf of bread.

https://www.bls.gov/charts/consumer-price-index/consumer-pri...

I live in downtown Vancouver, and at the expensive market downstairs in my building, it's about CAD$2.50?

Also... seems quite some people comparing quality of food, and usually US ends up losing. For bread and even kit kats

Counterpoint from an American working at an academic research job in Montreal.

The gross salary is indeed very low compared to US offers--moving to DC would have increased my gross salary by >2.5x.

However, add in various public services. I pay a few hundred dollars a year total for my family's insurance and medical care and there's little danger of this suddenly changing. Childcare is literally 10x cheaper---and that's after very generous parental leave (50+ weeks). Quebec has fairly strong protections for tenants, so the rent is rising but not wildly. The city is very walkable with solid mass transit, so I can walk, bike, or bus to most places, insulating me from gas prices. Once you start trying to 'buy back' a similar quality of life in a big American city, the salary gap is smaller than you'd think.

We're interested in moving back for other reasons (closer to family, more exciting jobs, etc) but the economic case, butter aside, is not wildly compelling at non-SV salaries.

If it works for you, cool. I live in Montreal and I don't see those numbers though.

Healthcare is free but Quebec also has horrible healthcare (they seem ok for pregnancy though). And your employer would cover that in the US anyway.

Rent has historically been reasonable but is quickly getting just as bad as other Canadian cities, and there's no availability.

I think we pay $60 / day for daycare, which gets subsidized down to ~$30 ish. You paid $300 in the US? There is subsidized daycare buy only if you're willing to wait forever.

Parental leave is only pays you 50k a year or so out of your employment insurance.

I agree that driving in Montreal is so horrible that I don't use the car unless I absolutely have to. Some would consider that a positive, I don't.

There are some good sides to Montreal in particular compared to other Canadian cities and US cities, but it's still not the land of milk and honey, and you still sacrifice a lot of money for it.

I waited forever for a family doctor, but all of our other experiences have been decent, especially once you're in the system. "Covered" in the US also rarely means 100% coverage: between copays, deductibles, and just general run-you-around-until-you-give-up nonsense, you usually end up paying something.

Daycare for us is about $15/day (calculator here: http://www.budget.finances.gouv.qc.ca/budget/outils/garde-ne...). Some of the prices we got for DC in 2021 were over $2500/kid-month and they've only gone up, so $150/day is indeed in the ballpark.

Driving? Chacun à son goût. I found driving here better than DC or Boston, but...yeah, I'm glad I don't do it.

I agree that it's not a land of milk and honey--but nowhere else is either.

Yep. People need to look at the whole picture.

An additional subtle one where Canadians are paying less than Americans: In many parts of Canada property taxes are remarkably low when compared to the USA.

Montreal and Quebec generally is the exception to the rule. You can't compare it to Toronto or Vancouver. Quebec has chronically depressed real estate prices, and has for decades. It has gone up some, but nothing like BC lower mainland and southern ON.

There's all sorts of reasons for this. But bad medical services is a big problem in Quebec, along with language politics.

I like many things about Quebec, but I wouldn't relocate there.

The minimum I would accept is $100k CAD. I currently make about $170k USD ($225k CAD), so that's a pretty steep drop that I'm willing to deal with.

That's fair, just be aware that it's not just a salary drop, it's likely higher income taxes (depending where you're from) and expenses too. Canada has some of the highest telecom prices in the world for instance.

There's still a lot to like about Canada. I grew up here and didn't leave, so I'm not saying don't come here.

Just making sure you don't get here and are shocked that not only do you make way less, what you do make doesn't buy as much either.

After Federal and Provincial income tax, EI and CPP premiums, your net pay at 100k CAD would be 68k in Qc, 75k in BC, and 74k in ON or AB. In BC and ON, you'd expect to spend 30k on rent; in AB and QC it'll be more like 21k.

So after rent and taxes, BC is 45k, ON is 44k, QC is 47k, and AB is 53k. Roughly.

Now you've got to pay for food, utilities, and so forth. That's probably another 30k. It's easy to spend 2500 CAD/mo on just food, gas, electrical, insurance, utilities and so on. Everything adds up fast.

So really, after all is said and done, you're working full time for 15k to 20k CAD a year; or 11k to 15k USD.

Your numbers are way off

>30K on rent

Not unless you're living in luxury towers in rich areas. A 1 bedroom or a studio will rarely go above 2K, even in Vancouver or Toronto.

>2500 on food

If you're cooking, and not being frugal at all, you're spending 500 per month at most.

>gas

Canadian cities are walkable and have public transit, you don't need a car. If you do need a car where you live, then you're likely saving on rent.

>electrical

Electricity is dirt cheap in Canada. Never paid more than 60$ even in winter. Other utilities are similar to the US, that'll add up to 200-300 dollars.

>insurance

Not a thing. Welcome to modern society, baby.

I'm sure you can spend that much money if you want to, but that's a choice to live a certain lifestyle. This lifestyle is not necessary.

My first job in Canada I made 53K, 37K after taxes. I lived a normal life, studio downtown, going on vacations, drinking and eating out, and still managed to save 13000 dollars in a single year. Later I got a raises to 80K, 120K, and eventually 250K, but my (again, definitely not frugal!) lifestyle never cost me more than 25 - 30K per year.

> A 1 bedroom or a studio will rarely go above 2K, even in Vancouver or Toronto.

Average price of an unfurnished 1 bedroom in Vancouver is well over 2k now.[0]

> If you're cooking, and not being frugal at all, you're spending 500 per month at most.

I said food, gas, utilities, electrical, and all the other sundries required of living in Vancouver. And 500 CAD on food was achievable pre-pandemic, but inflation hit grocery bills the hardest.

I paid for renter's insurance, and extended medical while living in Vancouver. It was worth it, because my storage locker was busted into several times by junkies and we had things stolen that we later replaced. And, if you bike you are potentially liable in accidents. Getting insurance if you commute by bicycle is sensible.

> Canadian cities are walkable and have public transit, you don't need a car.

Taking Translink will still run hundreds of dollars a month.[1]

0: https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/local-news/vancouver-rent...

1: https://www.translink.ca/transit-fares/pricing-and-fare-zone...

Average price includes luxury places. Spend a couple weeks searching and you won't pay the average.

Inflation, sure, it's still not gonna be more than 700$. My 500$ figure is literally from 2022.

Rent insurance is 30$ per month, anything else is optional and your choice and also not that expensive. That does not add up to 2500 per month.

And yeah, I know transit costs money, just get a pass. Work pays for it, and if they don't you can deduct it from your taxes.

There isn't enough luxury stock across the whole of Metro Vancouver to meaningfully inflate the mean above the median. Looking at New Westminster, the cheapest I see now are all private rooms in someone's suite. Most units are well above 2k.[0]

Utilities includes heat and hot water, electrical, home internet, cellular, gym memberships, and so on. I suppose if you never turn on the heater, don't have home internet, never hit the gym, don't make any calls, don't own a car, and only shit at work then you could save a bundle, here.

The transit tax credit was eliminated in 2017.[1]

0: https://rentals.ca/new-westminster?bbox=-123.08659,49.11473,...

1: https://turbotax.intuit.ca/tips/deducting-the-cost-of-your-p...

Are you actually from Vancouver? Nobody uses that site to look for a place, people use craigslist, and even then there's a bunch of sub 2K places. And heating is electric in 99% of Vancouver homes.

I had almost all those things you mention, internet and cell phone and gym membership, left the heater on 24/7 during winter, did plenty of shitting at home, and still never spent more than $1000 per month.

The only thing I didn't have is a car. A car is literally the worst financial decision you'll ever make. You're free to make it, but you can't come here and complain that cost of living is expensive.

Sucks about the transit tax credit though :/ I used to use that when my commute was by transit

I lived in New Westminster for 20y, and left in 2021.

Free heat and hot water is standard in older buildings with central boilers and radiated heating. Otherwise, you're taking on the utilities payment. If there's a separate service or dedicated service, then there's a bill.

If you don't have a car you're still renting a ride share to go hiking or skiing. Transit isn't taking you to Golden Ears or Cypress.

Makes sense, you haven't had to look for a place in 20 years. Yes, you have to pay for it, it doesn't matter, electricity is cheap.

And clearly you've never rented a car with your mates or taken one of the shuttle buses to the mountains.

What makes you think I didn't move during those 20y? I certainly did, I just stayed in New West.

Renting a car and taking shuttle buses isn't free.

Nobody says it's free, why are you moving the goalposts?

No goalposts moved. It's the little things we take for granted that add up.

The total cost of living isn't just room and board, it's the expenditures one makes to be happy living and working where they are.

Lol you can easily 1bdr around 1500-1700 in grand Vancouver area by skytrain

Most of this is either a very atypical experience or just made up. And obviously is from the perspective of a kid on his own for the first time. Being able to spend most of your money on renting a bachelor apartment and not afford a car doesn't sound too appealing for most adults.

It's literally my own experience, and most of my friends who live by themselves have said similar things.

Most people my age don't want a car, we want to live in the city center. People that live with their parents have a car usually, but that's it. It's not a big deal. I get that it can be hard to understand if you've lived in awful car dependent cities your whole life though.

Keep in mind that I have done my own research and am aware of the numbers I'd be looking at. They disagree with your numbers.

For one thing, I don't plan on living anywhere near one of the big cities.

That really is a YMMV outcome, then.

Ie, Nanaimo was once a small town in central Vancouver island, with low rents and cheap housing. It's now one of the fastest growing cities in Canada[0] and has some of the highest rents and fastest growing rents in BC[1].

Really, here in Canada the situation is changing _fast_. What may have seemed a reasonable market a year ago could have collapsed into unaffordability by now.

Also, as a resident of Nanaimo: be prepared not to have access to Health Care. As a new resident you won't get a family doctor, and the _single_ walk-in clinic stops taking patients early in the morning. The ER is your only option, and often it only has one attending doctor.

This is similar throughout BC outside of Victoria and Metro Vancouver. In no small part because of people like yourself, who are avoiding immigrating to the big cities; but also because of people fleeing the cities.

0: https://nanaimonewsnow.com/2022/02/09/nanaimo-population-jum...

1: https://nanaimonewsnow.com/2022/12/14/rent-prices-in-nanaimo...

Eh, take it for what it is but when I was in QA, my salary was $52,000 CAD for 9 years of experience. That included doing a lot SDET and customer integration work as well. And that was with a Canadian tech company.

You can probably do better but kind of gives you an idea about how big a US vs Canadian gap can get.

QA is paid very poorly in both Canada and USA

You can easily make double that as a senior eng in Montreal nowadays

> Right off the top you're earning CAD instead of USD, so with the current exchange rate that's a ~25% reduction in purchasing power.

Uh, those are two different currencies, and Canada generally has a lower cost of living than the US. I don't see why the Canadian dollar being priced weaker than the US dollar would come into this.

Because the laptop/cellphone/tv you buy is priced in USD and then converted to CAD. Take a look at Macbook prices in Canada and weep for us. Canada imports most products, and so we pay a hefty price for weaker currency

Importing doesn't inherently make something more expensive, least not between countries with extensive free-trade agreements.

Like, if you compare US vs UK MacBook prices the UK looks way more expensive, but after accounting for VAT they're basically the same.

If I go compare prices for luxury electronics like game consoles, phones, computer parts, laptops, and literally anything else, the cost of the item is always much more in Canadian stores than American stores, and it's always more than exchange rate would explain.

And that's before taxes.

And American stores will not ship those sorts of items to Canada.

I can't talk directly about the Canadian market, but I can tell you that in the UK, once taxes are accounted for the prices are near-identical, and we don't even have a US free trade agreement.

Keep in mind the COL in Canada is often higher too. So its pay cut + higher COL. Most Canadians can't afford to buy homes.

Most Americans, who don't already own a home, can't afford to buy a home either.

We’ll check out the express entry program you’ll be welcome

However, I’d read up on the healthcare shortage and high housing costs first though

I'm already in the Express Entry system. My CRS score is much lower than that of a student or someone with work experience in Canada, though, so the odds of me getting a draw are very low.

I'm already aware of the healthcare issues and the housing costs. I have a region picked out that mitigates some of that.

Why haven't you?

I'm trying. The difficulty is in the Canadian immigration bureaucracy, not the availability of jobs.

These changes announced yesterday will make it much easier for me.

I think you do not know how badly the housing gand healthcare crisis in Canada is right now. But you do you!

Please say why? I thought about moving to Italy but taking a 40% income loss to taxes seems insane to me. Canada is pretty much the same. I’d rather move to Georgia or Indiana.

You could also ask yourself about the quality and type of life you would have. Do you prefer your life in Indiana, or Italy?

For me it's a no-brainer that it would be Italy. Not much interest on living in the US, unless I was a millionaire.

Why?

There are things I value more than money.

I am curious what those things are and why you think you'll get them in Canada and not in the US.

Fewer fascists, for one thing.

Whatever you mean by "fascists", I can assure you there will be no shortage of them in Canada.