I found the post you replied to very incongruous, because as I read it started with the idea that men are casually discriminated against (responding to the "men suck" thing) and then skewed into something that may be an issue but is completely in a different spirit (men defying stereotypes by being primary child carers) and then committed exactly often offence the original post was pointing out "toxic masculinity". It's almost like a weird simultaneous attempt to find victimhood while still toeing the "men bad" line.

Toxic masculinity means something very specific, i.e. surpressing emotions other then anger and rage.

I don't think it's fair to equate that to "men bad".

The post said "female dating pool selects in favour of features that are often red flags for toxic masculinity". I took that to be a pretty expansive definition, typical "men that women like over me are toxic" vibe, at least that's how it comes out.

No you are projecting your own worldview over the substance of that comment.

That makes some sense.

Then again, how would a similar "Toxic Blackness" concept fly?

> how would a similar "Toxic Blackness" concept fly

Negative elements of traditional black American culture seem well discussed by the community itself, perhaps to a fault.

Toxic masculinity is absolutely a thing, think things like refusing to admit you're wrong, being overly aggressive and escalating situations, being overly boastful, being reluctant to show emotions other than anger. A lot of people are just triggered by the term for whatever reason. You could just as easily replace "toxic masculinity" with the word "machismo" if it makes you feel less threatened

You just described a bunch of traits of a narcissist and assigned them to masculinity. But I’m reality plenty of women display the same traits.

> refusing to admit you’re wrong > escalating situations > being overly boastful

The reason why people, mostly men, don’t like that term is because it gets thrown around for pretty much anything at this point to mostly put men down. Spreading your legs and holding the door open for someone is considered toxic masculinity.

"Machismo" is still a gendered term though.

Why not just describe it as "being an asshole", or "stubbornness", or "aggressiveness", or "being disagreeable", "being antisocial", etc?

Because people tie these behaviors to their identity as a sense of their masculinity. It isn’t calling masculinity toxic. Identifying these behaviors as inherently masculine is what is toxic.

So why wouldn't it be better to attack people's bad behavior than their identity?

Because they’ve made their identity the bad behavior. You can’t change behavior when someone has adopted it as their identity. Any criticism is perceived as a personal attack. Thus, the only approach is to point out that being an asshole as your identity is toxic and to be avoided.

Everything you just said is only reinforcing my belief that it's best to separate the behavior from the identity at all times, but especially when criticizing it, so that we don't spread the bad idea of linking bad behavior and identity in the first place.

That's just a return to the status-quo, which led to where we are. Giving advice of "don't be an asshole" didn't work because people made it their identity. Switching the advice to "don't make being an asshole part of your identity" is at least an attempt to change tack and address the weakness of only targeting behavior.

I can respect teaching people not to make it their identity, but the term "toxic masculinity" does nothing to teach people, it just bundles the toxicity to their identity.

Well, it's a masculine failure mode of essentially being overly prideful/insecure of maintaining one's sense of masculinity. You don't see a lot of women trying to defend their masculine sense of pride by picking fights

> You don't see a lot of women trying to defend their masculine sense of pride by picking fights

Why limit this only to "masculine" pride? You absolutely see women picking fights to defend their pride.

We just call that behavior "being a Karen" (or "catfights"). Which, being fair, both come with their own misogynistic problems.

> A lot of people are just triggered by the term for whatever reason.

trigger warnings for whatever reason

it's a blanket statement, it gets thrown around way too often without apparent reason, that's why

Toxic femininity might not be as visible, but in many ways it's more harmful for society because it hinders collaboration on every level

> Toxic masculinity is absolutely a thing, think things like refusing to admit you're wrong, being overly aggressive and escalating situations, being overly boastful, being reluctant to show emotions other than anger.

In general, women do all of this all of the time except the last. So you see the problem.

The term "toxic masculinity" doesn't imply that masculinity is inherently toxic any more than the term "burnt toast" implies that toast is inherently burnt. Toxic masculinity refers specifically to expressing and enforcing masculinity in a way that's harmful (to men as well as women).

Teaching boys to epxress masculinity through strength, assertiveness, self-reliance, etc. is totally healthy in moderation. Teaching boys to be violent or domineering isn't, nor is teaching them that showing emotion or asking for help is weakness.

Attaching a word for maleness and badness is harmful in and of itself, though. And its not even a good term, because the name is constructed to make it look like being male is what's bad. It's far from the only term like this, see, e.g. manspreading, mainsplaining, etc. which are pointlessly gendered.

This type of recent linguistic addition really sticks out when people are working so hard to make language humane and inclusive elsewhere, while simultaneously going in the exact opposite direction with male-related neologisms.

And the last part of your own post illustrates that bad traits like being violent or domineering can be called out without having to pointlessly gender the terms.

> because the name is constructed to make it look like being male is what's bad

I'm open to this argument because it's clear that many people take it this way, but how else would you state it? Everywhere else in English, an adjective limits the scope of the noun it's attached to. "Toxic chemicals" doesn't imply that chemicals are inherently toxic, "red car" doesn't imply that cars are inherently red. "Toxic" is probably needlessly sensational though, I'll grant that.

> bad traits like being violent or domineering can be called out without having to pointlessly gender the terms.

I agree with this. To clarify I think part of the frustration/misunderstanding with the term comes from it being applied at the wrong level. It's a descriptor of a social/cultural phenomenon, not a trait of an individual. If a man is being violent, it may or may not have anything to do with toxic masculinity, and invoking toxic masculinity to describe his actions would be inappropriate and needlessly gendered.

It really only makes sense to start talking about toxic masculinity when asking higher level sociological questions like, for example, why men are so over-represented in violent crime stats. It's a term to use when exploring causes, not effects, if that makes any sense.

It's like the difference in terminology between an ER nurse and an epidemiologist. The nurse might just say "flu", because at the level they operate that's the issue at hand. For them to speculate about the origins of the specific strain would be inappropriate. For the epidemiologist, however, these questions are exactly the point, because understanding the details of how an outbreak spreads can help us be more prepared in the future.

> I'm open to this argument because it's clear that many people take it this way, but how else would you state it?

I'd frame them in a way that centers on behavior ("domineering", "violent") without gendering them. I think this makes the actual things that are toxic clearer and that lumping them into "masculinity" makes them less clear.

> "Toxic chemicals" doesn't imply that chemicals are inherently toxic

Yet you've probably seen at least a few people who take this as a reason to worry about "chemicals" in general, despite that covering literally everything. Things like this just make me think that if we want to avoid harmful associations, we have to simply not pair up the words at all. If someone is being violent, we can complain about that without bringing their identity into the frame.

> why men are so over-represented in violent crime stats

But the term is bad because it does nothing whatsoever to illuminate which things might actually cause that and there are probably many causes it lumps under a single umbrella wrongly.

I've seen stats that indicate one of the bigger causes is untreated psychosis, which has nothing in particular to do with being male, or any other identity that's over-represented in arrest data for that matter.

And to me that just reinforces the idea that the identity shouldn't be used at all when framing the problem. I'm aware of the correlations, but we have to find actual causes and, e.g. get people mental healthcare to fix the behaviors creating toxicity, rather than accepting a framing that centers on someone's very identity as if that's the thing that's problematic.

And I can say "causes" because causal modeling is a thing now. I've been reading the Book of Why lately and it's interesting how much things have advanced even in just the last couple of decades or so.

> I'm open to this argument because it's clear that many people take it this way, but how else would you state it? Everywhere else in English, an adjective limits the scope of the noun it's attached to. "Toxic chemicals" doesn't imply that chemicals are inherently toxic, "red car" doesn't imply that cars are inherently red. "Toxic" is probably needlessly sensational though, I'll grant that.

I have an idea. Maybe it has nothing to do with the syntax of the term in the abstract and all to do with what a large number of people using it actually mean. If the term had no history of abuse, this wouldn't be a problem, exactly as you say. What we see in the actual world though is what people really mean by the term. The people using it are misandrists (evidenced by things like the other terms mentioned in the GP) and so the term has come to be a sort of slur; they just hate men and genuinely believe that masculinity is toxic tout court and they have a very hard time hiding it despite simultaneously spouting off otherwise reasonable theories. In other words, they don't mean what they claim to mean by it and people can detect this, so the term has become tarnished.

There does not exist a single pejorative or derogatory term which inherently was negative and disrespectful to a demographic. It is always the case that a word get used in a way that turns the word into a pejorative or derogatory term.

toxic masculinity as a descriptor is equally useful when asking higher level sociological questions as female hysteria was in the past when asking higher level sociological questions. Why are women so over-emotional in certain situations. Why were they over-represented in mental institutions. It's was a term they used to exploring causes of those things, and as a by product it was used to justify their conclusions.

It was originally a terminology used by doctors and health experts. It was later used by people and politicians. It was then abandoned by doctors and health experts, and then much later abandoned by people and politicians. It existed for hundreds of years and then abandoned. Neither change how inappropriate and needlessly gendered it was, nor the harm it did.

And yet when people talk about negative ways to express and enforce feminitity, they never seem to use the phrase "toxic femininity".

Frankly there's ubiquitous motte and bailey on this topic. People will claim the term just means "harmful stereotypes that make men feel they need to be macho", but then use the term in an entirely different way to shame any masculine behavior, no matter how harmless. The correct term for that definition would be "internalized misandry". People claim they're being trying to help men while taking brazen delight in bashing them with this "compassionate" term. If men are the victim, why are they being blamed again?

If I started going on about "toxic femininity" (e.g. gossiping and character assassinating rather than confronting people directly, or favoring groupthink over independent thought), then I'd rightly be called a misogynist for clearly trying to blame women for these negative human behaviors. Femininity is seen as a protected and positive trait, while masculinity is so shunned that even saying we shouldn't bash it is seen as suspicious