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Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by anonym29 on Sunday June 25, 2023 @12:58PM (#36470280)
Wish we had a hell of a lot more of these in the USA. Especially pet-free apartments. Something needs to be done about the service animal loophole though, far too many people abusing that system to bring e.g. pair of pitbulls into communities that only allow small dogs or the few rare gems that allow no dogs at all.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by cvccvroomvroom on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:21PM (#36470564)
I live in apartments in Austin. The only reason people get dogs is because everyone else has one. And there are plenty of instances of untrained and abused animals. My downstairs neighbor keeps a dog so loud its bark can be heard through a concrete floor. It barks at all hours of the day, night, and early morning. It's because these neighbors are inconsiderate assholes. The apartment complex management shrugs their shoulders. Hipster ghetto and I'm breaking my lease.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by derstander on Sunday June 25, 2023 @02:13PM (#36471079)
> I live in apartments in Austin. The only reason people get dogs is because everyone else has one.

I don’t know if I’m parsing this correctly. Are you saying that the only reason people get dogs in your particular apartment building in Austin is because everyone else has one?

Or are you saying that, in general, the only reason that people get dogs is because everyone else has one? The latter just isn’t correct. And I can’t speak to your particular apartment building, but I’d expect it’s not true for everyone there either.

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by teaearlgraycold on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:21PM (#36470579)
What’s wrong with pitbulls? Every one I’ve met is a sweet little thing.

And I know the stats on dog attacks. Something like 10 a year from pitbulls could easily be down to owners buying them specifically to use them as weapons and training them as such.

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by missedthecue on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:30PM (#36470670)
Since you're aware of the statistics, how can you reconcile that only pitbulls seem to have bad owners? Wouldn't we assume a more normal distribution of bad owners across breeds, making golden retrievers, great danes, or bloodhounds just as likely to maim and kill other pets or children?
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by mcphage on Sunday June 25, 2023 @02:01PM (#36470972)
> Wouldn't we assume a more normal distribution of bad owners across breeds

I don’t think so… given breeds have different reputations, there’s no reason to expect that anything about their owners distributions to be random.

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by hotpotamus on Sunday June 25, 2023 @02:09PM (#36471044)
Dog breeds are an object of human fascination with fashion. https://www.vox.com/2016/8/31/12715176/most-popular-dog-bree...

I don't really have a strong opinion on the subject, but in my life, Doberman Pinchers and German Shepherds have gone through phases of being seen as dangerous breeds as well. My suspicion is that owners who desire aggressive dogs also tune into this and train their dogs accordingly.

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by teaearlgraycold on Sunday June 25, 2023 @03:01PM (#36471491)
If you’re an owner who wants an attack dog pitbulls will be on your short list along side German Shepherds. Now, there are definitely some breeds that don’t have it in them to attack (and if they do it’s less likely to be reported). Even if you get bitten by a chihuahua you’re not super likely to file a police report. And I will admit that you would be hard pressed to get a French Bulldog or Pug to hurt someone. But I don’t think pitbulls deserve to be singled out.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by anonym29 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:12AM (#36506791)
I've known a lot of German Shepherds (>10), and while they tend to be incredibly protective of their owners and their home, they don't seem to have the externally-directed aggression that I've seen from pitbulls. YMMV of course.

Also, FWIW, the only dogs I have been bitten by were a Chihuahua and a Pomeranian.

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by ryan93 on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:02PM (#36470324)
You are right about the dogs. You should be banished to the moon for suggesting kids free spaces. Literally no better than whites only spaces. Edit: fastest ive ever been downvoted. Are there a lot of misanthropes in software?
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by mecsred on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:13PM (#36470457)
This logic makes no sense. What about no smoking spaces? Basically every nation implements these and it benefits everyone (including smokers, more reasons to quit). Are you going to try and tell me "no smoking in front of the building" is the new apartheid?

Smoking and parenthood are lifestyle choices, which have consequences. Skin color is not, and shouldn't. It is not relevant to the conversation.

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by ivan_gammel on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:22PM (#36470585)
Childfree is a lifestyle choice which must be taxed (and already is in some countries like Germany). Parenthood is a matter of survival of our species and our economy.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by anonym29 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:08AM (#36507573)
Childfree absolutely isn't a choice for everyone. The idea that we should punish those who are too unattractive, disfigured, or disabled to attact potential mates, or those with medical conditions preventing them from having offspring, or those with highly heritable diseases that would negatively impact the quality of life of their offspring, is as inhumane and cruel of an idea as I could think of. There is no justification for punishing those who already have a hard enough life as-is, give them a break FFS!
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by Dma54rhs on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:29PM (#36470659)
Parenthood is necessary so your nation doesn't go extinct and hopefully you get a paid pension from a new generation. As the other commenter said many nations tax having a child free lifestyle just like they tax smoking.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by EA-3167 on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:33PM (#36470700)
"Breed for the good of the nation" isn't the compelling argument it once was.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by Dma54rhs on Sunday June 25, 2023 @02:00PM (#36470960)
You might apply to that anything if you want to go full individualism - from taxes to vaccines but that is not how societies work. Only on paper for the libertarian types.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by EA-3167 on Sunday June 25, 2023 @02:39PM (#36471310)
I don't think making choices about child-bearing in a world with 8 billion humans in it counts as either "full individualism" or libertarian adjacent. If you want to help the world in a concrete way, breed less.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by anonym29 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:54AM (#36507362)
I will say this in defense of libertarian individualism: I think you should have a right to opt-out of being a citizen of any given country. The ability to do so, in practice, varies from totalitarian states where you physically cannot leave without risking being killed to western liberal democracies where you're allowed to renounce citizenship with just one condition - get another citizenship first.

While the latter is certainly extremely reasonable and humane relative to the former, that condition is still an insurmountable barrier for lower income, cognitively impaired, or otherwise vulnerable folks.

If you lack the means to obtain another citizenship, you are more or less the partial property of the government you were born into (given they are legally entitled to a portion of all your earnings), and you have no way of leaving.

That we more or less "trap" the vulnerable into partial financial servitude wherever they're born makes me mildly uncomfortable in the same manner that the concept of chattel slavery makes me deeply uncomfortable - no person or institution ought to have such dominion over another living, breathing person that the latter cannot disassociate from former.

We wax and wane about the necessity of such resulting from the social contract, but the social contract is the only contract I know of that is both serious and enforced (even if not literally defined), whilst not being one that you enter into voluntarily.

A key component of what renders a contract valid in contractual law in the US (stemming from common law) is that all parties to the contract must enter into it voluntarily, with full knowledge of it, free from coercion or deception.

We at least ought to stop calling it a "contract" and start calling it what it really is - Demands for involuntary tributes to the ruling elites (who benefits more from taxpayer dollars - the poor and needy, or Lockheed Martin executives?), that you must comply with under threat of force, up to and including lethal if you resist the wrong way.

I'm not saying the alternative is simple, but it seems unjust to me that human societies force their most vulnerable people into subservient economic relationships with governments (that have lengthy track records of using those very same tax dollars to perform horrific and flagrant atrocities against humanity, like drone bombing weddings, abducting and torturing innocent people, etc), based purely on where they're born.

Animals don't engage in this kind of depravity - why must we?

I hope the societies of the distant future look back on our current system of government and see it for the barbaric, medieval, and inhumane institution it really was.

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by anonym29 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:10AM (#36506759)
Pension, lol. Social Security is a pyramid scheme and the only condition in which it was sustainable was "infinite growth in a finite world", which isn't even remotely realistic.

I am already 100% confident I will never see a penny from it, and as a result, I'm saving and investing so aggressively that I'll be on track for my investment income to exceed my FAANG income before I'm 40.

Relying on unsustainable government wealth redistribution programs is cargo cult behavior.

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by clktmr on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:25PM (#36470616)
Parenthood isn't always a lifestyle decision and being a child certainly never is.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by anonym29 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:36AM (#36507100)
I'm gonna take a stand here and say that up until extremely recently in the US, parenthood almost invariably was a deliberate decision. When abortion was legal in all 50 states and programs were available that offered free family planning services (contraceptives and abortions) to low-income households who might not otherwise have the means to access these services, parenthood became almost ubiquitously optional.

In any case, the woman has, at minimum, several months of time between the moment she becomes aware of a pregnancy and the moment a viable, live birth occurs.

Since the 70's, PP could get you in same week for an abortion. It didn't matter what the pregnant woman's skin color, income/wealth, zip code, age, disability, national origin, religious views, or any other bit of demographic data was - this was something rapidly and easily accessible to anyone with thousands of locations across the U.S.

Granted, this has regrettably changed in recent times, so I'll give you that.

On a tangent - it's so bizarre to me that when the conservatives who can almost incessantly be found talking about the importance of "small government" finally seized a modicum of real power in the US via SC majority, some of their very first actions were increasing the scope of the rules and regulations of big government. :|

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by alvarezbjm-hn on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:46PM (#36470825)
"Smoking and parenthood are lifestyle choices, which have consequences. Skin color is not, and shouldn't. It is not relevant to the conversation"

You are mixing up many different unrelated topics here.

Smoking is [mostly] a choice. You used it for an analogy. You explained why it is good to have smoking laws. Then you act like this is part of the conversation on the same level as childfree zones. Smoking is a personal and a public health issue. You getting cancer is expensive for everyone, your non smoking flatmate getting smoking derived cancer is a tragedy (and expensive for everyone) Definitely not in the same level as ruckus, dirt and destruction of property.

Parenthood as in "how many children will someone have" is [mostly] a choice. But there are many reasons for society benefitting parenthood in spite of exclusionists (How to call them NIMBYS?)

-> Children are expensive for parents. CONVERSELY, they are fantastic for economy. Parents are forced to work because they MUST SPEND. Not that they want, they MUST pay for food, care, health, education, clothing, entertaiment.

-> Housing is a very important current issue. Not only in the US. In the few countries I have cared to pay attention, there is the pertinent mafia who has (unofficially exclusive) permission to build, and they naturally build less than required: it is obvious, less supply, better prices. Then add the "investors", buying all property to rent it. Now add the NIMBYS to that humanitary tragedy.

-> There comes a point when the rich country population is unsustainable, and the immigration floodgates are opened. (Cheap labor, anyone?) US and Canada are there already. If not done correctly, that creates many more social issues for everybody (even the immigrants)

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by mecsred on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:58PM (#36470936)
I [mostly] don't disagree with what you've written here. I think you misinterpreted my point. I'm not trying to say smoking and parenthood are the exact same, I'm trying to say wanting to take a date out for a nice meal with no screaming infants and racial segregation are absolutely NOT the same.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by warning26 on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:03PM (#36470333)
Why? Kids probably cause more property damage than pets do. Seems reasonable IMO.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by jxidjhdhdhdhfhf on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:17PM (#36470504)
It's cheaper to have no disability access than to have it. It's probably cheaper to exclude poor, black people from your property.

Too bad, when you live in a society, you have to deal with other people living in the society including those under the age of 18.

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by logicchains on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:06PM (#36470367)
And the people arguing for white-only spaces said whites caused less property damage than certain other races.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by warning26 on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:17PM (#36470512)
And that’s related how? Choosing to have a kid (or a pet) is a choice, while race isn’t. Seems to me that’s a pretty major distinction.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by jxidjhdhdhdhfhf on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:25PM (#36470615)
Choosing to have a kid is a choice of the parents, not the child. You're forgetting the child is also a person, one as deserving of the same civil rights as anyone else, at least where we can give them without causing harm to the child.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by Dma54rhs on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:31PM (#36470677)
Are these serious opinions? I'm sure in America they said to black folk having kids is a choice as well - you can skip the discrimination by not having a new generation.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by mcphage on Sunday June 25, 2023 @02:06PM (#36471026)
Being a child is not a choice. No-kid zones ban children, not parents.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by pessimizer on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:08PM (#36470388)
Black people aren't children.
Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by alvarezbjm-hn on Sunday June 25, 2023 @01:17PM (#36470510)
"Black people aren't children" Deflection

Both concepts (white only and childfree) are the same (Exclusion of the others), and come from the same place (My right to have what I want is more important than everybody else's)

Same as it was considered bad taste to have blacks lingering around, now it is bad taste to have children running around.

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by Chris2048 on Sunday June 25, 2023 @02:04PM (#36471003)
Parents are allowed in, just not with their kids, much like people with dogs are allowed in without the dogs.

It's also funny that you are OK with "it is bad taste to have dogs running around", almost like it's your preference..

Re:Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South ... by newaccount74 on Sunday June 25, 2023 @02:03PM (#36470998)
Online discussion forums are full of child free people because they have nothing to do all day.