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Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by j7ake on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:04PM (#36438040)
This is a very USA centric view.

In many European countries, freedom of attention is attained by having strong social support (eg free day care, education, health care, quality food, strong employment and tenant laws).

Many people in Europe live without thinking about money 24/7 but are in absolute terms less rich than high paid people in nyc and sf.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by jacobwilliamroy on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:18PM (#36438275)
As a US citizen, I think about money all the time. What country do you think I should move to to escape this?
Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by SCUSKU on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:28PM (#36438461)
"Wherever you go, there you are" -- While I do think you can move to a lower cost of living area, you can't outrun your relationship to money. If you have a tendency to spend on things you don't need, then you will be forced to think about money all of the time.

Accepting less, living below your means, and finding happiness in non-material things could be one way to escape this.

Of course, there is also the option of moving to developing countries and leveraging your financial privilege as an American, e.g. South America/South East Asia.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by themodelplumber on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:46PM (#36438718)
For real. Deepen your relationship with money so that it's more comfortable, nuanced, and stable. Like a relationship with an old friend. Even if you lose touch for a while, they're still there for you.

Otherwise there will still be a tendency to view money in "have it / don't have it" terms, or similar lines of thought that will require not only thinking about money all the time, but doing so in a way that takes far too much personal attention and energy.

A lot of people have the false belief that thinking about money too much is a sin, or an unwise mistake. But you can also look at this tendency as beginner-level money-ing. Education and deep experience / analysis of the topic really help.

IMO you can also still retain happiness in material things if you develop your relation to/with them, too. For example, understanding them as symbolic totems or touchstones, or pointers toward a higher quality of life in terms of any perspectives they may symbolically suggest independent of your own established perspectives. (Once you start to do this you'll start to eat away at merchants' profit margins since your concept of worth & value will deepen, and a sort of optimization skill will set in. :-))

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by digitalengineer on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:34PM (#36438545)
"I decided to take a 50% payout... and somehow I feel... happier?" American working in The Netherlands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw0gJgMhaqo
Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by fosk on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:35PM (#36438577)
Italy, a small town in southern Italy specifically.
Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by LoganDark on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:21PM (#36438312)
Looks like you're gonna need money to move, though.
Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by cscurmudgeon on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:45PM (#36438710)
Move to a country that is safe from external aggressors without help from the US while also not having these worries.

That leaves a total of .... 0 countries.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by vaidhy on Thursday June 22, 2023 @05:04PM (#36438981)
To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal - Henry Kissinger.

yes, WW-3 might be right over the horizon and we all can be bombed out of extinction.. but the world has changed from middle ages.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by cscurmudgeon on Thursday June 22, 2023 @05:39PM (#36439430)
> To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal - Henry Kissinger.

Kissinger said so it must be true?

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by pistolpeteDK on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:47PM (#36438728)
If you can live with the high taxes, then scandinavia is nice. The social safety net makes money less important. Free health care is the big one. Not having to worry at all about hospital bills(ever) is a great relief.
Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by JohnFen on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:57PM (#36438870)

    "Money don't buy what you really need
    It make an ice man cry, it make a stone man bleed

    But when you get right down to it, no matter who you are
    It rules your life like a virgin queen
    One day you might get over it, but in the meantime
    It rules the world like a green machine"

    -- The Alan Parsons Project, "Money Talks"
That truth is why I hate money.
Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by carlosjobim on Thursday June 22, 2023 @05:34PM (#36439349)
People in Europe will plan their life around best exploiting government monetary benefits, so I'm not sure if I can really agree with your point. From things like deciding what month to get pregnant in order to maximize some welfare benefit, to entire businesses specializing in getting corporate welfare instead of actually producing anything, to farmers growing stuff they have no need for in order to get over a square meter threshold to increase their subsidy. I've had the misfortune of listening to hours upon hours of these boring conversations, with everyday people giving each other tips to get as much as possible from the government. Wether it's a financial benefit or the benefit of getting more days to stay at home on your couch and watch TV.

Give me the American flavor of greed any day. At least some great ideas and some great stories come from it.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by nuancebydefault on Thursday June 22, 2023 @05:56PM (#36439625)
I live and work in Europe, even in a country with one of the best corporate and government wellfare. It is true that a lot of people think about how to exploit the system regularly. That said, i am not one of them (at least not for a big amount), and a lot of people really enjoy being more relaxed about the possibility of getting ill or loosing a job, without fear of bankruptcy. This while liking their job and putting a lot of effort doing it well. So i guess some bias kicked in by having been surrounded by people of the former type...
Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by jxramos on Thursday June 22, 2023 @06:32PM (#36440081)
that would be great to actually turn into an investigative documentary in video format. I'd be curious to get a taste of experiencing what you experienced.
Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by carlosjobim on Friday June 23, 2023 @10:44AM (#36447489)
It's not terribly exciting, from the conversations of everyday people that I have had to listen to, some examples:

A couple of house owners discussing putting solar heating on their roofs because the government launched a subsidy for it and one of them heard about it. With the subsidy the panels would start giving a modest return on the investment after an estimated 25 years. These people had no interest before in "green energy".

A young wife being asked by her aunts when she's going to have kids. The answer: I have to finish my degree, then work for at least two years so I can qualify for the maximum benefits when I go off on maternity leave. In the context of getting that degree and job for that specific purpose.

The most boring of all was listening to small business owners and their endless small time scheming with putting everything as a business expense to deduct on their taxes. I'm all for not paying a dime in taxes, but what kind of life do you end up having?

So the above is just life, everyday life for everyday greedy people. That's why I wrote give me the American flavor of greed any day. That greed that goes into creating things like the high tech stuff discussed here on HN every day.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by jxramos on Friday June 23, 2023 @01:51PM (#36450126)
Flavor of greed, I like that.

This is an interesting form of market distortion of volition if you will where the confines of self interest take on somewhat strange shapes under specific directed ends and incentives offered by government programs. This is in contrast to unspecific non-directed open ended ends of a free(er) market economy letting self interest take on whatever shape it will unprovoked.

I wonder if that open ended structure encourages or at least gets out of the way of people who do the creative value producing thing. Interesting thoughts about the mental path of least resistance and where the thoughts of a subpopulation find themselves when shaped and prodded in a certain direction.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by stubybubs on Friday June 23, 2023 @02:42AM (#36443610)
In America it's the corporations that do all this maximizing of government subsidies and regulations, only they get to write those regs themselves through regulatory capture. If you want subsidies, the US is only slightly behind the EU for farm subsidies.

So you know. Same thing except all that money flows to the top, and the bottom still has to think about medical bankruptcy.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by carlosjobim on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:07AM (#36447864)
Europe and America are not so different in all those things. Regulatory capture is alive and well on both continents. But there exists a kind of spirit and individualism and entrepreneurship in America that you hardly ever see in Europe. Fueled by greed for sure, but the greed of wanting to change the world and become a billionaire, instead of European small-time greed of wanting to buy some condos and let your children live on rent income.

For all the good and bad, a service like Uber could never have been invented in Europe. I remember when it was accepted that taking a taxi was just for rich people.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by deterministic on Saturday June 24, 2023 @02:14AM (#36456072)
Well I prefer to live in a democracy. The US stopped being a democracy a long time ago:

“Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.”

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by throwaway22032 on Thursday June 22, 2023 @07:22PM (#36440623)
As a Brit, I don't really understand the mindset that everyone is a mistake away from being penniless, to be honest.

It feels mostly like a healthcare thing specific to the US. And it ignores the fact that most severe healthcare outcomes will ruin you in more ways than just the financial.

Aside from healthcare, there are no real expenses I can think of that would suddenly "ruin my life".

The two real examples I can think of are:

- an uninsured house fire/collapse, mitigated by... insurance

- severe mental illness / breakdown that results in spending my life savings

Otherwise, it's like, ok, beyond age 21 I have at least a few months savings.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by throwaway2037 on Thursday June 22, 2023 @09:28PM (#36441661)

    everyone is a mistake away from being penniless
Ignore it; it is wildly overstated around here.
Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by NoZebra120vClip on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:44AM (#36442884)
There are thousands of homeless people out here who didn't understand that mindset either.

Yet many became homeless because of one glitch, or perhaps a series of mistakes, that cascaded into a catastrophic failure.

Once in 1997, I was living in a homeless shelter, and a TV reporter came to interview us. One of the residents went on camera to say "Every one of us who is living paycheck to paycheck just doesn't realize that we're one mistake away from losing it all." And that's the truth, because there are so many Americans who indeed live "paycheck to paycheck" without any building or planning for the future beyond next month.

I've been homeless and I sure didn't anticipate it, but it was inevitable, the way I was mismanaging my finances, my relationships, my employment, and my housing.

Last year I would've been ruined by medical debt if my father didn't swoop in to pay it all off. I was trying to do things the hard way; I went to the hospital about 5 times in 12 months, and they all hit me with enormous bills. I couldn't get coverage, I couldn't negotiate them, I was hardly aware of their existence at some points until they were sent to collections.

Medical debt will well and truly ruin some of us around here, even if we're insured, because it's designed to be ruinous. Now into this mix you add some mental illness or executive dysfunction and we have a real crazy time dealing with paperwork and bills, much less holding down a job.

One of the horrific things about hospitalization is that you're cut off from the outside world and you can't take care of your affairs. I would worry about paying my rent and bills. If those were late, there could be ruinous fees or the eviction process could begin. I could become homeless just for being hospitalized too long. Some of us have nobody "on the outside" to assist in these matters. The hospital won't give you a computer or cell phone or WiFi access.

Most people would greatly benefit from both disability insurance and long-term care insurance. The latter is very expensive, but if you need long-term care then those costs are going to devour every penny you've saved anyway. So it's a good idea to front-load that and perhaps you'll pay less in the long run. Private disability insurance is great and can pay out cash when you need it the most. It really helps to be insured for these eventualities. I wish I could afford all of that.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by MrJohz on Friday June 23, 2023 @01:47AM (#36443259)
But that's what a welfare state is for, isn't it? To act as a kind of collective insurance, paid into by everyone, that mitigates these sorts of disasters. You've just lost your job? Here is some money for the time being to tide you over, and support for finding a new job. You've just had a health emergency? Here's sick pay from work, and the potential for support if this is a long term issue that prevents you from working (and the healthcare is already covered). Your house was destroyed in a freak accident? Here's temporary accommodation, and a bunch of organisations who will try and stop it happening next time.

Fwiw, this is all pretty idealised, and in practice a lot of these institutions can break down, or don't provide as much support as they should, or whatever else. I agree that insurance is really valuable in a lot of these cases, and you should get it if you can.

But I think there's generally a problem if these sorts of benefits are only available to those whose parents are rich enough to provide that safety net.

Re:Money Is the Megaphone of Identity (2020) by itairall on Friday June 23, 2023 @04:52AM (#36444389)
The problem is 50% of the people in the US are spendthrifts and absolutely terrible with saving money.

It doesn't matter what their income is. A spendthrift can always find something to spend all their money on no matter how high their income is.

The American spendthrifts are also the types to have huge levels of debt to service.

If you always spend everything you have and everything you are credit worthy of you are not going to be able to handle an unexpected financial shock. Even if healthcare was free in the US, there would be some other shock that would be a problem almost by definition of being a spendthrift.

These discussions are always so pointless because the relationship people have to money is so hugely varied.

It is also why it was a huge disservice to spendthrifts in the US to pause student loan payments for this long. Not only is that student loan payment gone for 50% of the people but it is probably actually servicing additional debt after this long.