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Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by ralphhughes on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:07PM (#36392677)
Skimming the website, I assume this submersible is using electromagnetically attached drop-weights so that if anything goes wrong and power is lost, the weights drop off and the submersible floats up to the surface again? And 96 hours of life support sounds good, but unless there is another submersible nearby that can dive down, find them AND attach a line, the number of hours of life support will be irrelevant. Of course if the pressure hull has failed catastrophically it will have been over mercilessly quickly. Anyone know if deep-diving submersibles are required to carry black-boxes like aircraft?
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by imglorp on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:26PM (#36392931)
A location pinger would be a no brainer but like you say, it only helps if there's another sub with a grapple in range, in time.

I understand why oceanographers /might/ want to do this, but not in person when ROV tech is so good now, for biology and tourism. There are so many things that can happen to fragile humans in that complex machine: drowning, freezing, asphyxiating, crushing, oxygen narcosis, nitrogen narcosis, co2 poisoning, and the plain old bends.

So why do people risk all that, and pay 125k to do it? Why the titanic obsession? It's only the fourth worst maritime disaster (Doña Paz in 1987 had 4k deaths) and so what if someone made a movie about one.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday June 19, 2023 @01:57PM (#36394396)
People do all sorts of risky things. We're human.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by swader999 on Monday June 19, 2023 @02:40PM (#36394950)
Trust in experts.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by mannykannot on Monday June 19, 2023 @02:41PM (#36394974)
Not that it appeals to me, but I would guess that the appeal of the Titanic lies in it being the canonical 'technological hubris' story and a contender in the 'if only...' category.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by ryanfreeborn on Monday June 19, 2023 @04:50PM (#36396287)
And the fact that it sank on its maiden voyage. The tragic irony makes it obvious why humans bestow such significance upon it.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by nickmcc on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @07:49AM (#36402708)
“I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel,” said Captain Edward Smith, commander of the Titanic.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by belorn on Monday June 19, 2023 @07:09PM (#36397572)
It is one thing to do it in person and an other to see it on a screen. As a diver I can fully understand why they want to go down there, for the same reason astronauts want to visit space instead of just sending up a satellite with a video camera.

That said, yes, titanic might not have been my choice personally. It has a sister ship that lies at a more reasonable depth of ~100 meters, so divers can actually be in the water and explore the inside. It is also fairly intact in contrast to titanic which is broken in half with the stern being mostly destroyed.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by sgjohnson on Monday June 19, 2023 @07:27PM (#36397737)
> So why do people risk all that, and pay 125k to do it?

People enjoy casual risk-taking.

If I had the 125k to dish out for this experience, I probably would have done so myself.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by jacquesm on Monday June 19, 2023 @07:51PM (#36397927)
Lucky you, then.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by rwmj on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:34PM (#36393049)
Wouldn't the sub have a tether to the surface, or is that not practical for some reason?
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by floxy on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:40PM (#36393126)
~2.5 miles of tether might be an obstacle.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by lb1lf on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:15PM (#36395364)
That's how you bring several kW of power down to an ROV.

An umbilical cable, copper conductors and fiber optics inside steel wire sheath. The weight of the thing makes it impossible to attach it directly to the ROV - It would be unmaneuverable - so instead they bring it down to a TMS (Tether Management System) - basically a cage where the steel umbilical terminates and a spool of lightweight tether cable, 100m or so, which the crew then pays out to give the ROV the capability to snoop around at depth.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by malshe on Monday June 19, 2023 @06:07PM (#36397062)
This is great info! Can you please point me to any write up that explains this in more details?
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by jacquesm on Monday June 19, 2023 @07:58PM (#36397988)
There are several companies specializing in deep see ROV applications, it's a super interesting field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remotely_operated_underwater_v...

Is a great starting spot, read it and then branch out following the sources links.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by lb1lf on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @06:43AM (#36402117)
I went to sleep, time zones being what they are, but see that user jacquesm posted a link to a most impressive rabbit hole of engineering porn.

As an aside, one of the first field jobs I attended after graduating was commissioning some equipment fitted onto the R/V Knorr, the very ship which was used for finding the Titanic.

For a Titanic buff, that was a great experience - doubly so when the project manager at the Woods Hole end found out that I had more than a passing interest in the wreck, and during lunch one day suggested we go see if we could find Bob, as he believed him to be on the premises.

Bob, of course, turned out to be Robert Ballard, who turned out to be an incredibly gentle and patient guy who answered each and every question I had like it was the first time he had it posed to him, despite probably having had them thousands of times before...

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by jacquesm on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @06:14PM (#36411435)
I've done some work for a company in this domain, it is incredibly interesting and you could easily lose several lifetimes on all of the engineering details.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by HWR_14 on Monday June 19, 2023 @02:56PM (#36395147)
Leaving aside the literal tons of weight a tether would require just to life a single person back to the surface (and the weight of the tether), it also could get pushed around a lot by the current. And, most importantly, once you are down there and want to navigate the wreck it would get in the way.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by londons_explore on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:27PM (#36395509)
The weight of the tether doesn't matter when it is in water. You just design it to be neutrally buoyant. Either using mini pressure vessels or tanks of light oil.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by WalterBright on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:41PM (#36395651)
Neutral buoyancy varies by depth, because water compresses. You'd have to have a tether with the same density of water and the same compressibility.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by londons_explore on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:52PM (#36395772)
The compressibility of water is fairly negligible - the density increase is only 1% for every 2 kilometers of depth. And obviously the cable also compresses at depth - probably by a similar percentage,
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by carlosjobim on Monday June 19, 2023 @09:09PM (#36398514)
The metal wires in the tether is heavier than water. This is balanced by twining air/gas hoses into the tether. Gas compresses by 50% for each 10 metres of depth in water, so that's a whole different scale.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by londons_explore on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @02:32AM (#36400457)
You either put floats (ie. Gas chambers of fixed volume) or sealed tanks of a light liquid, for example kerosene.

For high depth like this, tanks of a light liquid are probably most suitable. I'd probably use liquid butane. With a vapour pressure of 40 psi, it is easy to contain, and is has a density of only half of water. If it leaks, there won't be an environmental cleanup cost either.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by js2 on Monday June 19, 2023 @04:36PM (#36396161)
The Jason ROV has a 6-mile tether, so it's possible:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_(ROV)

Titanic was also discovered with a tethered sled, the Argo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo_(ROV)

It was then explored with a combination DSV and tethered ROV:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSV_Alvin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Jr.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by gexla on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:21PM (#36392862)
Some articles I found suggest that a trip was 8 hours to get there and back. Another mentioned being in the sub for 12 hours. I'm guessing it's a 4 hour trip each way and then they spend a number of hours checking the wreckage.

The wreckage site is around 370 miles from Newfoundland, Canada.

Seems like the rescue effort could be unfolding over days.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by jiveturkey on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:28PM (#36392963)
> mercilessly quickly

mercifully quickly?

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by sixQuarks on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:42PM (#36393158)
Huge implosion at very high pressure. Would happen in milliseconds
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by jonathankoren on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:18PM (#36396603)
Reminds me of the story of the first crewed submersible to the bottom of the Mariana Trench. During the descent there was a loud boom, like some something massive broke. After recovering from the shock, they decided to continue the dive, because if it was something important, they would have already been dead.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by selimthegrim on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:20PM (#36396631)
Did they find out what it was?
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by civilitty on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:40PM (#36396816)
> At 30,000 ft. a sharp crack rang through the ship, shaking it violently. The water pressure outside was more than 6 tons per sqare inch., and even a slight fracture in the hull would have meant certain death. It proved to be only an outer Plexiglas windowpane which had splintered under the pressure. The inner hull remained watertight. "A pretty hairy, experience," admitted Walsh.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070202144233/http://bjsonline....

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by bombcar on Monday June 19, 2023 @07:39PM (#36397828)
“If you hear a strange noise, remain calm. If it had been bad you would be dead before you heard it.”
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by jacquesm on Monday June 19, 2023 @08:00PM (#36398002)
Pretty gutsy to continue after that rather than to go back up and investigate what it was first.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by sixQuarks on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @08:50AM (#36403249)
No kidding. I would have insisted on going back up, I admit I'm not cut out for adventure at this scale.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by wnkrshm on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @06:45AM (#36402135)
Don Walsh has been on the Deep Sea Podcast a few times, I can recommend it for anyone interested.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by srvmshr on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:46PM (#36396874)
For the Trieste, the bang came from a crack in the plexiglass visor. It was reinforced to several inches of thickness.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by ralphhughes on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:48PM (#36393249)
Thanks, fixed.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by yetanotherloser on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:57PM (#36395806)
I think this might be one of very few circumstances that can be said to be both at once, sadly.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by lode on Monday June 19, 2023 @01:25PM (#36393887)
David Pogue went down with the same vessel last year for CBS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o

"I couldn't help noticing how many pieces of the sub seemed... improvised."

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by jbverschoor on Monday June 19, 2023 @02:44PM (#36395018)
Move fast and break things

Fix it in post

Save/load game

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by svnt on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:01PM (#36395219)
@2:40 reading contract: “[…] an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death. Where do I sign?”
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by svnt on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:05PM (#36395266)
Oh it keeps going at 3:30: [CEO gestures at interior lighting] “I got these from… Camper World.”

“We run the whole thing from this game controller.” [shows some knockoff controller]

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by svnt on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:12PM (#36395334)
I found the (wireless, $30) game controller:

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Wireless-Nano-Receiver-Contr...

and this from a review:

“Pretty good controller, fits in hand comfortably and is compatible with anything I throw at it in a Debian linux environment. The conductive pads are extremely low quality though as I've had to replace them 3 times in the 2 years Ive been using it. For a Logitech product I expect better build quality and reasonably easier to find replacement parts but not true for this product.

Last night I had the left directional button go out on me and without parts on hand I ended up breaking down an old wired controller I had laying around. The IZDTech controller i used for parts is over 5 years old and the conductive pads are still in good shape. With a little modification I was able to get them to sit 'okay' on the buttons. Until i can find the appropriate conductive pads this will have to do.”

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by fullstop on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:27PM (#36395511)
Good lord, at least use an Xbox controller. They are supported pretty much everywhere and are very durable. The US Navy uses them because they are durable and because new recruits are already intimately familiar with them.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by inconceivable on Monday June 19, 2023 @04:08PM (#36395885)
also microsoft has been supplying the navy for a long time.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by fullstop on Monday June 19, 2023 @04:14PM (#36395950)
Yes, and they once neglected to prevent division by zero: https://www.wired.com/1998/07/sunk-by-windows-nt/
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by yieldcrv on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:21PM (#36396640)
and the personnel are like 19 years old, so its perfect for game controllers
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by GartzenDeHaes on Monday June 19, 2023 @06:44PM (#36397366)
EOD robots too.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by londons_explore on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:24PM (#36395487)
So it's possible this sub is stuck turning in right only circles deep underwater because the left button has broken...
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by swader999 on Monday June 19, 2023 @10:34PM (#36399063)
Can't even do NASCAR.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by svnt on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @07:24AM (#36402459)
I mean that’s good lateral thinking but the issue is not that one particular button will go out but that any button or buttons could, and at any time, and it would probably be the most-used buttons since it was wear-based failure.

They also briefly showed a single button on the wall that it was implied functioned like an elevator button.

There were a lot of ways it looked like things could trivially go wrong, once you got a feel for how it was built.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by kossTKR on Monday June 19, 2023 @07:28PM (#36397742)
Ok that’s absolutely bizarre! That and the rest of the interior made from alibaba products that should have been military grade.

Can anyone even try to explain this choice? Even a hobbyist would curate the inside with top of the line products and aesthetics - this dude this dude has just jerry rigged some cheap chinese crap - what the actual hell?

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by l3mure on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @08:26AM (#36403051)
Using a wireless controller for this is so funny, we need more grifters like them.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by WalterBright on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:39PM (#36395633)
What's the matter with that?
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by svnt on Monday June 19, 2023 @06:16PM (#36397130)
It is a submarine that carries people to depth. I don’t think it should have consumer-grade lighting designed for an RV that has windows and an exit that is always possible to use.

It should not have a low-cost consumer-grade controller.

The CEO should not be bragging about the fact that it does, on camera. It demonstrates an incredible lack of experience and/or mental disconnect. All of this would be fine if it were a boat in an amusement park 1 meter pond or something, but it is in the open ocean at depth. It was a matter of time before people died.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by jacquesm on Monday June 19, 2023 @07:54PM (#36397956)
Apparently he's on the sub. That is probably the one place where he could be that he won't end up being sued out of existence for gross negligence.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by edelans on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:29PM (#36395531)
link to time of this quote: https://youtu.be/29co_Hksk6o?t=203
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by tazjin on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:48PM (#36396894)
This video strikes me like a TV clip from a more civilised era or something. It's calm, there's no annoying music, the initial presenter didn't say anything too clickbaity. It's oddly calming.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by beowulfey on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @07:22AM (#36402447)
CBS also does 60 minutes, which I've also long respected for a similar kind of calm, collected vibe for journalism.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by phoenixreader on Monday June 19, 2023 @06:38PM (#36397328)
The video is not available for me on Youtube. Alternative working link: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/titanic-visiting-the-most-famou...
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by housemusicfan on Monday June 19, 2023 @08:59PM (#36398432)
At 3 minutes in:

> "We only have one button, it should be like an elevator."

Oof. The thought of being at that depth being at the sole mercy of automated software. Godspeed to those aboard.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by spokeroni on Monday June 19, 2023 @06:30PM (#36397260)
> I assume this submersible is using electromagnetically attached drop-weights so that if anything goes wrong and power is lost

I don't think they have any "drop-weights" which would make them positively buoyant. If I'm reading the spec-sheet correctly, the submersible itself weights ~1500lbs. Subs have ballast tanks which they pump with air and force out water to make themselves positively buoyant. But if something goes wrong with the mechanism to fill the ballast tanks, I'm guessing they'd just be stuck at depth. (disclaimer, I am far from an expert at this - I just have a cursory understanding of Boyle's law)

edit: upon viewing this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o&t=157s they seem to have construction pipes as ballasts that they can drop :| God help the poor souls on that sub

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by moffkalast on Monday June 19, 2023 @07:52PM (#36397943)
There are typically compressed air cylinders that can expel the water in case of emergency. At least on military submarines that go down to 300m, it may not work 4km down where the pressure is ridiculous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_main_ballast_tank_bl...

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by fastball on Monday June 19, 2023 @10:39PM (#36399091)
* * *
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by manarth on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @01:12AM (#36399995)
Standard scuba cylinders are typically pressurised to around 230 bar, with a small proportion taking 300 bar as their standard working pressure (with margin for over-pressure).

It's not too much of a leap from there to the 380 bar pressure at Titanic's depth.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by fastball on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @07:29AM (#36402514)
Indeed, this company[1] seems to sell COPV's that are rated for 414 bar, so my assumptions were wrong in this case.

As such, I will revise my theory, and posit that the actual issue with this strategy at Titanic depths is keeping the water out of the ballast tanks once you've evacuated them. This seems plausible given that the hatch must be bolted on from the outside. If they had a method to keep 382 bar of water dynamically out of the ballast tanks, presumably they could use that same method to have a hatch that can be opened without manual screwing.

[1] https://steelheadcomposites.com/composite-pressure-vessels/

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by manarth on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @09:50AM (#36403952)
> If they had a method to keep 382 bar of water dynamically out of the ballast tanks

By filling the ballast tanks with 382 bar of air.

The human-interior of the sub is maintained at 1 bar to avoid compression demands (hyperoxic seizure triggers at approx 7.6 bar when breathing atmospheric gases; HPNS (High Pressure Nervous Syndrome) is common after 16 bar on a helium-oxygen mix), and decompression requirements.

Equalizing the inside-outside pressures would help a lot with the composite materials, and somewhat less so with the fleshy meat bags inside.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by fastball on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @11:28AM (#36405418)
On further thought, I'm not sure your original comment is correct. How exactly does one purge the ballast tank with the air tank? Would you not actually need an air tank that has double the pressure of the outside water, with the same volume as the ballast tank that you want to clear?

Then to clear the ballast tank you would open the air tank, the higher pressure air would then force out the lower pressure water (this is clearly why it can't be the same pressure as implied in your first comment), and then when you're done you have two tanks (your air and ballast tanks) both at 380 bar.

If that's how it works (which sounds better to me), you'd actually need a PV rated for 740 bar, which seems well outside our current materials science. Presumably you could increase the volume of the air tank relative to the ballast tank and therefore need less than 2x pressure, but the more you do that the more you're increasing your buoyancy, defeating the purpose. In fact (and I'm still mostly just spitballing here, not actually doing any math), I assume you really need some pressure greater than 2x, otherwise you're just cancelling out your ballast with your air tank. You need the volume of the air tank to be less than your ballast tank to actually end up with ballast tanks that make you sink without being totally counteracted by your purge tanks.

That would track with using this system in submersibles that are operating at ~300m and not for things like this which are trying to operate at 4000m. At 300m you could have a 400 bar COPV that is 7.5% the size of the ballast tanks, which sounds practical.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by jacquesm on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @06:13PM (#36411424)
Big difference between pressure from inside the vessel or from outside of the vessel.
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by ridgeguy on Monday June 19, 2023 @06:44PM (#36397364)
I've read that many military submarines have an "I've sunk" buoy. It detaches from the boat under commanded deployment, after some elapsed time without reset, or when external pressure rises way beyond crush depth. They're positively buoyant. They have radio beacons to report the event when they rise to the surface.

edit: No cites, sorry.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by detaro on Monday June 19, 2023 @06:46PM (#36397389)
Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by neerd on Monday June 19, 2023 @07:02PM (#36397516)
> As it may be difficult to manually release the buoy, or the compartment where the buoy controls are located may have been flooded, the buoys were arranged with automatic releases, in the event of a fire or internal flooding. Such automatic sensors proved unreliable and buoys were sometimes released unexpectedly. Accidental release of a buoy would have been a hazard during wartime operations, or even during exercises. There is some indication that unreliable buoys were welded into place. This may have been a factor in incidents such as the Kursk sinking, where the buoy was not released and it was difficult to locate the wreck.

I see so many parallels to bad devops patterns I’ve seen. You build your incident response protocols around a metric alarm (bouy being released). However the alarm is noisy so people either ignore the alarm or suppress it (welding the bouy in place). And then when an actual accident occurs your response is ineffective.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by marricks on Monday June 19, 2023 @11:04PM (#36399241)
> And then when an actual accident occurs your response is ineffective.

Nothing can be actual human care and attention. Everything can break and no automated system made by careful people is exempt from needing that.

I'm reminded that late into development of a Pixar movie servers crashed, work was lost, and the automated back up system failed. The only thing which saved it was that an artist took a copy of the project home to work on it.

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by spoonfeeder006 on Monday June 19, 2023 @08:29PM (#36398210)
You're saying that after the sub drops the weights it won't break the surface?

If so how do you know that?

Re:Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search by Mistletoe on Monday June 19, 2023 @09:47PM (#36398750)
The article says even if it floats to the surface they can’t get out. :(

It’s bolted from the outside.