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Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by cypress66 on Monday June 12, 2023 @11:19PM (#36304742)
A congressman asked gensler face to face if ethereum is a security and gensler declined to answer. So no, the SEC has not been clear.
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by 8note on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:10AM (#36305163)
For what definition of Ethereum? The one with staking?
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by mthoms on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:14AM (#36305206)
Doesn't matter. He refused to give any indication either way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhA1dZXeao0

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by growse on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:49AM (#36306469)
Why are people so desperate to seek legal advice from law enforcement?
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by mmahut on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @03:34AM (#36306831)
It happens when the law is not clear and the law enforcement has to take a stand on it to enforce it.
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by hef19898 on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @04:24AM (#36307237)
The opinion only shows how little, read none what so ever, experience some people have in figuring out compliant business processes. Yet another rude awakening for the, let me be blunt, cluelessly naive and in some cases outright criminal tech crowd that seems to flok in huge numbers around crypto in general.

That attitude started aroind the time Uber got big. Maybe even with AirBnB. In a sense, crypto is exactly the tech eco system we deserve. Good that there is finally some enforcement of rules that apply tp basically everyone else.

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by growse on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @04:24AM (#36307240)
There's lots of laws that aren't "clear", but people don't phone the police up and ask them what they're going to do. They talk to a lawyer and get advice.
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by ETH_start on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @04:27AM (#36307273)
Because in this case the agency that enforces the rules is also charged with creating them, and how the rules this agency creates apply to novel instruments with no centralized issuer, centralized operator or investment contract, is not at all clear.
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by growse on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @04:30AM (#36307299)
No, Congress creates the rules. The SEC decides how to enforce them. A court then decides who's right in any given action.
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by ceejayoz on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @06:31AM (#36308120)
No, in most cases, Congress makes laws that say things like “we delegate our rule making authority to the EPA with regards to air pollution” (Clean Air Act). The agencies then create the rules; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Federal_Regulations

Sometimes the court system decides the agency’s rules exceed the authority granted to them by Congress.

Other times Congress uses the Congressional Review Act or new legislation to say “that’s not what we meant”.

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @06:37AM (#36308168)
The laws pertinent to the SEC's complaint are the '33 Act, '34 Act and court cases which constructed the Howey Test. None of them were created by the SEC.
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by ceejayoz on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @09:19AM (#36309857)
The '33 and '34 Acts give the SEC the ability to write the regulations, via wording like "under rules and regulations which the Commission shall prescribe". Congress defines a variety of things, but the SEC makes most of the nitty gritty procedure/rules out of those definitions and directives.

The Howey test exists because the SEC enforced said new-ish regulations against someone, and the court agreed with them, holding Howey liable for violations of the '33 Act as implemented by regulators at the SEC.

All this makes the statement "No, Congress creates the rules" upthread inaccurate.

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @10:12AM (#36310473)
> the SEC makes most of the nitty gritty procedure/rules out of those definitions and directives

The violations the SEC describes in its complaint (¶ 8) are not nitty gritty. It's all bare-boned Exchange Act malfeasance.

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by ceejayoz on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @11:24AM (#36311625)
Agreed, but entirely irrelevant to the point at hand.
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @01:20PM (#36313480)
> entirely irrelevant to the point at hand

What? The laws Coinbase is being charged with violating are creatures of the Congress and courts, not the administrative state. This is not a case of "the agency that enforces the rules is also charged with creating them" [1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36307273

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by ceejayoz on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:05PM (#36314157)
Coinbase wants the SEC to come up with a process for them to register with the SEC that's amenable to cryptocurrency, via a "petition for rulemaking"; https://www.sec.gov/rules/petitions/2022/petn4-789.pdf. (The SEC is, rightly IMO, saying "nah".)

Again, the point is that both Congress and the SEC make "the rules" around securities. Congress defined securities and gave the SEC the ability to write the rules for securities, with some specific requirements. The SEC's rules can't violate the various Acts of Congress, but they've still got quite a bit of rule-making power delegated to them.

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @04:50PM (#36317061)
> Congress defined securities and gave the SEC the ability to write the rules for securities, with some specific requirements

Right. Like choosing what's important and what's not. (It's also a totally dishonest framing by Coinbase. Their business model, a unified broker, exchange and custodian, is fundamentally in violation of the '34 Act. They're asking the SEC to break the law.)

What makes no sense to me is the stupidity of fighting the case. I understand Coinbase's PR rallying the crypto base before. They were making a lobbying push to change the law. And the base would throw money at them. But now? Either management has reason to believe they can run out the clock on the SEC before Congress changes the rules. Or they're as delusional as the base.

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by ETH_start on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @08:06PM (#36319442)
No, Congress creates the legal framework, while the SEC creates the rules (regulations).
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by vba616 on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:19AM (#36305249)
It suggests bad faith to ask why the SEC didn't crack down earlier. Sure, it was politics, but it seems entirely understandable.

We all know that before the crypto bust, a lot of people would've been starting a witch hunt if the SEC had tried to enforce the law. Congress, for starters.

Gensler is being opportunistic now because that's the reality they have to work with.

The wealthy and powerful in this country take it on themselves to personally ruin public servants who get in their way sometimes.

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by paulddraper on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @01:51AM (#36306030)
Huh???

The SEC decides when, what, and for whom it enforces rules?

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by ceejayoz on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @06:20AM (#36308044)
This is extremely common practice in our system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutorial_discretion
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by paulddraper on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:29PM (#36312677)
Kinda violates "justice is blind" trope, no?
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by ceejayoz on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @01:02PM (#36313235)
Meh, "justice is stupidly aggressive" isn't an improvement.
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by vba616 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:17PM (#36333560)
No, it's impossible to prosecute every violation of law, and this has been true since the beginning of time.

Would you agree that each library can't have every book ever written, and do you think there is a distinction between not selecting a book and "banning" it?

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by vba616 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:39PM (#36333819)
"In our system"?

As if there is a system that catches, charges, prosecutes and/or convicts everyone who breaks the law.

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by vba616 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:04PM (#36333415)
Every organization has limited resources.

A library can't have every book in the world. This doesn't mean that not selecting a book is exactly the same as "banning" it. It does mean the issue is nuanced.

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by ETH_start on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @04:29AM (#36307288)
>>The wealthy and powerful in this country take it on themselves to personally ruin public servants who get in their way sometimes.

Oh poor former banker worth $100 million, getting push back when he robs people's right to invest their money how they wang.

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:46AM (#36305459)
> congressman asked gensler face to face if ethereum is a security and gensler declined to answer

The SEC has brought zero enforcement action that turns on Bitcoin or Ether being securities. Somewhat hilariously, these complaints are an industry endemic with bullshitters flipping out about Gensler being able to say “I don’t know.”

Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by _fizz_buzz_ on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @04:06AM (#36307096)
Basically, Gensler is throwing them a bone. Ethereum is very obviously a security but the SEC decided it has been too long since the ICO, it's too big and too decentralized to now go after it. Pretending not to know if Ethereum is a security is a gift from the SEC to the crypto industry and crypto folks should probably shut up about this asap before the SEC feels their gift isn't appreciated.
Re:“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments... by _fizz_buzz_ on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:59AM (#36306559)
The reason Gensler probably didn't want to say anything publicly is that Ethereum is legally a bit of mess and should have clearly been classified as a security when it ICOed, but the SEC kind of dropped the ball. Gensler knows this, the Coinbase lawyers know this and the congressman asking probably also knew that Ethereum was in a bit of a grey area. Honestly, crypto folks should be happy that SEC is taking a "don't ask, don't tell" approach with Ethereum. This is how Matt Levine put it:

"Some of them did securities offerings, but by the time the SEC noticed they were too entrenched and decentralized and it would have been a pain for the SEC to go after them. Ethereum, most notably, very very clearly did an ICO in 2014, raising about $18.3 million by selling ETH tokens. If they did that today, or in late 2017, the SEC would have some serious questions. But by the time the SEC got around to cracking down on ICOs in 2017, Ethereum was big and decentralized and the SEC would have had a hard time, practically and legally, challenging its 2014 ICO. And so everyone sort of grudgingly concedes that ETH is not a security."