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Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by londons_explore on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:42AM (#36125435)
TSMC seems real low for a company with a 100% share of the high performance chips market, with a really high moat, and lots of hype that chipmaking will be getting lots of government investment and lots of demand with AI wanting massive amounts more compute...
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by lumost on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:16AM (#36125860)
TSMC is capex heavy. They will see margin compression with higher interest rates, at least in perception - their most over intel is only their ability to efficiently deploy capital.
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by klelatti on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:31AM (#36126045)
This. The value of a stock should (in theory) be based on discounted cashflow with the emphasis on cash. A company can generate massive earnings but if it needs to invest huge amounts of capital to support those earnings then it should have a lower valuation.
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by Sohcahtoa82 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @12:16PM (#36126646)
Isn't being CapEx heavy a sign of constant expansion, though?

I would think that selling (or choosing not to buy) a stock because their P/E is low because their CapEx is high is short-sighted unless you don't think their CapEx spending is going to pay off.

It's like...back in 2012, I was talking to one of my wife's relatives at a Christmas party. He said he'd never buy Amazon stock because they've never been profitable. I said they're not profitable because every dollar they make, they put back into R&D. He would have 10x his money now if he had bought their stock.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by lumost on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @03:17AM (#36135442)
Software R&D is a special type of capex, in principal - successful R&D execution buys recurring free cash flow in near perpetuity. Contrast this with TSMC who needs to outlay ~50 Billion every 2 years on a new Fab which will deprecate over ~6-7 years. If TSMC stopped buying fabs, then intel would beat them in ~2 years time - and TSMC would be out of business in 6-7 years.

Software R&D may be less efficient then the above math would imply, but there is a big range between perpetuity and some depreciating time horizon. R&D can also boosts growth prospects by expanding markets.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by Sohcahtoa82 on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @12:10PM (#36140016)
> Contrast this with TSMC who needs to outlay ~50 Billion every 2 years on a new Fab which will deprecate over ~6-7 years.

Oof, that's the bit I forgot. TSMC's CapEx isn't just expansion, it's replacement. They're constantly upgrading to manufacture new technologies.

It makes sense now, thank you.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by cykros on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @06:11AM (#36136586)
CapEx intensity can boil down heavily to the industry a company is in. If a software company is doing a lot of CapEx, it's likely growing pretty quickly. If a manufacturing company is spending a similar ratio of its earnings, it may well just be treading water.

As usual with these ratio metrics, a full understanding of the industry, or at least understanding that you can't compare apples to oranges, is important.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by nixcraft on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:48AM (#36125521)
TSMC is at risk due to geopolitical tensions, particularly between China and the USA. These risks led to Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway selling its stake in TSMC. Investors are worried about that. That s my best guess. Apple also opened three factories in India and other places to mitigate this risk.
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by arroz on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:17AM (#36125868)
Apple factories in India don’t lower their dependency on TSMC
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by red-iron-pine on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:40AM (#36126150)
Yeah but it does lower the dependency on Taiwan, with is the T in TSMC.
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by RC_ITR on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:49AM (#36126260)
How? iPhones were assembled in the PRC, not Taiwan (though interestingly, Foxconn the owner of both the PRC and India plants, is Taiwanese).
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by arroz on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:16AM (#36125861)
Well NVIDIA depends entirely on TSMC
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by addaon on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:38AM (#36126128)
> Well NVIDIA depends entirely on TSMC

Yes and no. If NVIDIA loses access to TSMC due to geopolitical events, presumedly their competitors do too. There might be a couple years where they face increased competition from their own used market if they're unable to produce chis competitive with the previous generations', but at some point Samsung et. al. will catch up on capability and capacity, and NVIDIA will be as well positioned relative to their competitors to take advantage of that as they are today. The only case where this would be significantly different is if one of NVIDIA's major competitors was independent of TSMC and thus could use the lean times for NVIDIA to leapfrog them; but that would require considering Intel a real competitor.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by paulmd on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:55AM (#36126357)
Arguably in this sense their only competitors would be screwed even harder. The last non-TSMC GPU that AMD has released is based on GloFo 12nm/14nm, NVIDIA would actually be ahead with Samsung 8nm. Intel's only dGPUs are TSMC as well, they flatly don't have a product without TSMC.
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by addaon on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @12:14PM (#36126621)
I think Intel's advantage in this hypothetical is access to foundry space. Porting their current CPU designs from TSMC to their own foundry is non-trivial (although it can't be that hard -- their integrated graphics are fabbed on their own process, and share quite a bit with their discrete units), but at least having completed that effort they have somewhere to go, instead of fighting over what will be extremely over-subscribed Samsung fabs.
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by cykros on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @06:02AM (#36136527)
NVIDIA also depends on not getting the Micron treatment from China. Or even not having China take a particularly hard line on their Micron policy and disallowing NVIDIA to import Micron chips to use in their manufacturing produce for export from China.

But, NVIDIA's heavily exposed to the LLM craze.

Do with that what you will.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by adam_arthur on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:09AM (#36125774)
I've thought the same.

It seems to me that they don't use their moat to really drive price. I don't know if it's cultural or what, but they could easily extract higher prices given their position. I seriously doubt Apple, AMD or NVDA would walk to another fab and give up a huge performance edge in their offerings.

While TSMC's gross margins are 60% which is already quite high, their customers also have close to 50% margins... which implies room for higher chip prices

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by dvhedvsa on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:46AM (#36125496)
Yeah, but it’s in Taiwan. The Geo political situation as such that people discount it’s future prospects
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by londons_explore on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:54AM (#36125586)
Are there betting odds anywhere for regime change/invasion of Taiwan?

I would put it as ~1% per year right now, but perhaps other investors see it differently.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by usaar333 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:14AM (#36125834)
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by hankphot on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:20AM (#36125915)
If you believe that Taiwan has a 1% chance of being invaded per year and that this event would remove your ownership then the long term value of purchasing this stock is negative
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by red-iron-pine on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:42AM (#36126168)
Exactly
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by Ekaros on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:58AM (#36126395)
Maybe further question is, would invasion of Taiwan change the ownership structure in total sense. Or just for example 51% moving to Chinese hands.

Production capacity losses might be realistic scenario and sales to west going down.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by hankphot on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @12:53PM (#36127218)
The image of some western white guy complaining about unfair it is the China invalidates his ownership in the TSMC following a genocidal invasion of Taiwan is pretty good, I’ll give you that.
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by zamadatix on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:02AM (#36125682)
I think the big thing in this space was Buffet recently pulling out of TSMC saying he loved the company but thought the tensions made it too risky. I don't know what that puts the odds for a full on invasion of Taiwan at but tensions in the area are definitely impacting real investment decisions.
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by candiodari on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:05AM (#36125716)
This seems inaccurate. If China will invade (at least 50%), they will definitely do so in the next 10 years or so.

So a reasonable guess based on that assumption would be ~6.5% per year.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by pc86 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:12AM (#36125808)
Based on what? This sounds like you just pulling numbers out of the air, in which case 1% vs. 6.5% means comparatively nothing. And what makes you so sure that if China invades Taiwan they would definitely do it by 2033, and there's a 0% chance it'd happen in 2034?

I'm not trying to be [overly] pedantic but HN is littered with comments basically just making shit up in a language of confidence and precision.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by jcranmer on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:45AM (#36126207)
I believe Xi Jinping has said something to the effect of "Taiwan should be a part of China by the end of this decade," although I'm having a hard time pinning down the exact quote. Although it should also be noted that Xi also tends to emphasize his desire to see Taiwan unified peacefully rather than force, so it's difficult to assess with accuracy how likely China is to invade Taiwan to compel an unwilling unification.

As you say, 1% versus 6.5% is a level of precision that isn't helpful. The way I prefer to think of it is that a Chinese invasion of Taiwan is sufficiently probable as to warrant making contingency plans for such an event, but not so probable as to warrant making active efforts to avoid Taiwan.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by theironhammer on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @12:42PM (#36127055)
"it's difficult to assess with accuracy how likely China is to invade Taiwan to compel an unwilling unification."

Taiwan is 30+Million people. I should imagine that would require a massive military undertaking.

Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by cm2012 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @12:27PM (#36126823)
He doesn't deserve downvotes, he gave his assumptions and people can make their own judgements. His odds sound reasonable to me.
Re:Nvidia is now a $1T company by dirtyid on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @01:09PM (#36127464)
Really what odds for TMSC disruption which is much different and permissible.