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Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by dmeijboom on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:38AM (#36122508)
This happened a while ago and was related to the trademark/copyright issue. It’s an immature move and I can’t take this seriously. All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by silisili on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:42AM (#36122525)
> All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation.

They are doing a fantastic job of creating drama all by themselves.

I don't use Rust, but the constant childish bickering has turned me away from even caring to.

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by qersist3nce on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:54AM (#36122604)
Many years ago, I read a comment on Slashdot saying "the fact of a programming language having a "code of conduct" makes it ripe for everlasting drama and politics."

It made sense then and it makes sense now.

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by alkonaut on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @05:13AM (#36122734)
The reason slashdot is no longer relevant as the go-to tech discussion site is just because everyone who loves hating on "modern" things like CoC stayed, and everyone else left. These days it would be more strange to see a major project NOT have a CoC than seeing one. There is drama and politics in any large org whether or not there is a CoC or not.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by qersist3nce on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @05:18AM (#36122764)
Slashdot was sold to another media company which had other priorities. Are you aware of its "redesign" drama strictly followed by that same new leadership? Many users left then and there.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by alkonaut on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @05:24AM (#36122810)
I left a long time ago. I think around the same time as CmdrTaco. But the place was basically just tech Luddites and Microsoft bashing so it became a bit repetitive. Also: HN.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by jq-r on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:05AM (#36124402)
Slashdot is a good example how a vastly unpopular redesign to make the site more "modern" can bring the whole business down. It's not even the bad redesign per se; it's sticking to it, and not reversing on it. A real shame in my opinion as I think that auto-moderation system is the best I've seen.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by KerrAvon on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:51PM (#36130584)
It was ridiculously easy to game the Slashdot moderation system. You knew what topics would get upvoted -- positive about Linux, negative about something like SCO during the lawsuit period. It was not difficult to accumulate karma.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by jq-r on Thursday June 01, 2023 @05:21AM (#36148971)
I'm not sure if that was the fault of moderation system. This is more of an echo chamber effect which exists everywhere where there are humans involved. Not sure if technology can change that.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by lelanthran on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @05:43AM (#36122922)
> The reason slashdot is no longer relevant as the go-to tech discussion site is just because everyone who loves hating on "modern" things like CoC stayed, and everyone else left.

That was certainly not my experience; I left because all discussions were monopolised by a few seemingly unemployed accounts to shame any and everyone into agreeing with whatever the vocal minority at the time was pushing.

When I stopped reading it, the only people left were those who were constantly using shaming language on anyone who didn't agree about things like a code of conduct, or words are violence too, etc.

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by detourdog on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @06:39AM (#36123281)
When I read about codes of conduct like this I worry about humnan relations. Does remote work cause the need for CoC? The over prescription of interactions seem like sci-fi to me. I haven’t worked in an office since the last millennium.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by mschuster91 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:51AM (#36124906)
> Does remote work cause the need for CoC?

No, CoCs became a trend way before covid made remote work possible for the masses. They initially were demanded by project members after high-profile scandals of some kind, usually racist or otherwise discriminatory bullshit, sexual assault on conferences or bullying (Linus Torvalds for example used to be infamous for his language), and then other projects (or their members) wanted ones as well as a preventive measure for the future.

For what it's worth, I dislike CoCs because many of them are written with the assumption that people will behave like utter trash without being explicitly told not to and I grew up with the old "Don't be an asshole" rule [1]... but given what happened in the past where people were clearly incapable of not being assholes and communities having splintered over it, they seem to be inevitable.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:The_No_Asshole_Rule

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by MaKey on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:22AM (#36125940)
I dislike CoCs because they aren't what they claim to be: Instruments to protect people. They are tools of power, ready to be used when needed to bully or oust someone. I therefore really don't understand the broad acceptance or even call for Code of Conducts.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by munificent on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @01:55PM (#36128118)
> Instruments to protect people. They are tools of power, ready to be used when needed to bully or oust someone.

They are both.

A CoC, like other weapons, is more or less value-free. The CoC itself doesn't care what you point it at. It's a question of who is wielding it, and who they're wielding it against.

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by atq2119 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @02:20PM (#36128464)
I think this is a reasonable concern. The most recent episode of drama out of Rust is a pretty clear example of problematic behavior by some leadership person, and so it'll be interesting to see whether equally clear consequences will result. In other words, it'll be interesting to see whether their code of conduct is worth the bytes it is stored in.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by KerrAvon on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:54PM (#36130639)
The problem is most people will in fact not be assholes, but the ones who have a disproportionate effect, because there's no direct penalty. Someone can't stand in your yard and loudly shout personal abuse for very long without getting hauled away by the police*, but there's no such enforcement mechanism online.

[*] yes, it can be more complicated than this. you get my meaning.

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by tomjakubowski on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:39PM (#36130426)
Obviously these lists are incomplete. It was a lot harder finding major programming languages lacking a CoC than finding projects with one.

Language projects with a community Code of Conduct:

Python, Rust, Golang, Ruby, Perl5, Erlang, Elixir, Zig, ISO C++ (WG21 https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practice...), ISO C (WG14) https://lists.isocpp.org/liaison/2021/04/0444.php), ECMA/JavaScript (https://tc39.es/code-of-conduct/)

Language projects without:

Java (Oracle's, anyway), Nim

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by DanHulton on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @05:12AM (#36122729)
Every community has a code of conduct, it's just that some of them are explicit about it.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by qersist3nce on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @05:14AM (#36122735)
Would the Rust foundation be ok with SQLite CoC? or a software project with a CoC in compliance with Uganda laws?
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by 1letterunixname on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @05:26AM (#36122822)
The fascist part of it is forcing people to use them and threatening them when they don't understand the need to address a non-problem with terminology, duties, and responsibilities they don't agree with.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by insanitybit on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @08:02AM (#36123785)
Except that most languages have significant amounts of drama. Rust drama is just more interesting to people because it's newer.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by fredsmith219 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:56AM (#36122628)
Bingo. All the drama has succeeded in doing is removing Rust as a possible language for my next project.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by porcoda on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @05:53AM (#36122985)
> I don't use Rust, but the constant childish bickering has turned me away from even caring to.

Same. I want to use it because technically it's the right choice for a few projects, but when I talk to people in my organization I still label it as "too immature and volatile to adopt today, but worth watching". I was hoping the adoption by Linux and Microsoft would be the forcing factor to stabilize it, but the governance aspect still seems chaotic. I'll keep watching and hopefully it calms down such that adopting it won't be a risk. Or maybe the good parts will just get adopted by a more stable (w.r.t. governance and standardization) language.

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by insanitybit on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @08:05AM (#36123806)
Rust is pretty stable and clearly past the point of being immature and volatile. A few issues that the internet has blown up lately doesn't change that.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by jen20 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:31AM (#36124677)
Indeed, by criteria of community drama, .NET is also too immature for use. See [1], as the conclusion of that.

[1]: https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/40

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by pie_flavor on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @01:34PM (#36127816)
You can find no trace of childish bickering in the language, tools, libraries, or documentation. I'm not sure why people doing silly things off in the distance would bias you against using Rust, the use of which would not involve those people ever.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by silisili on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @02:26PM (#36128558)
While I think your statement is true, a few reasons:

1 - I will inevitably end up on some mailing list or forums when researching libraries, correct way to do things, etc, where such people interact.

2 - As 'governors' of the language, how can I trust them to make sound investments in the future? I don't want to just learn a language and tooling as a one off.

3 - I don't want to support organizations that act this way, even if the language were perfect.

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by pie_flavor on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @03:24PM (#36129346)
1) This is an accurate complaint. By my estimation (on the official discord) they interact in such a way for an amortized three of the 1440 minutes in the day.

2) The language is pretty great. Further serious investment is going to be primarily in the third-party libraries department.

3) You need make no contributions, financial or otherwise. I am probably a net drain on the foundation's resources.

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by coffeeblack on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:42AM (#36122527)
Forking is an essential feature in OSS, its what OSS is all about.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by agilob on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:49AM (#36122565)
Yes, because it worked out well for Java.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by Eldt on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:55AM (#36122615)
Do you mean in spite of?
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by marcinzm on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @08:37AM (#36124086)
Seems to have worked well enough for OpenBSD, OpenOffice (and then LibreOffice from that), Jenkins, OpenSSH, Apache Server, WordPress, Inkscape, Webkit and Xorg.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by yjftsjthsd-h on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @03:38PM (#36129540)
When did Java get forked? The closest case I can think of is the Oracle/Google lawsuit, which 1. Oracle lost, and 2. wouldn't have even been a thing if Google had forked rather than reimplementing.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by agilob on Monday June 05, 2023 @12:55AM (#36192459)
Microsoft forked Java, introduced Windows only APIs, broke some of interplatform APIs. Changed syntax here and there... was sued by Sun. 1997
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by marcosdumay on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:28PM (#36130285)
Hum, I don't get what you are saying.

You mean it didn't work well for Oracle when everybody moved to a fork?

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by notmypenguin on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @04:04AM (#36135739)
Except this forks a language and tools, a language whose premise is a single opinionated path to nearly everything, aka the opposite of C++

This drama has already damaged Rust and it needs to be addressed ASAP

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by Hamuko on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:44AM (#36122540)
>All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation.

This doesn't create drama surrounding the Rust Foundation, this is drama directly caused by the Rust Foundation.

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by hxugufjfjf on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @07:29AM (#36123578)
Its actually not. The most recent drama was caused by the Rust Project, not the Rust Foundation, which are two completely separate entities. This seems to be a common misunderstanding which is being spread around here, including the top comment to this post.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by Hamuko on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @07:45AM (#36123660)
It is. This is not caused by the most recent drama but by the Rust trademark shitshow, which was definitely by the Rust Foundation.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by hxugufjfjf on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:11AM (#36125803)
You’re right. I mistakenly thought this was a response to the latest drama show.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by datadeft on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:50AM (#36122583)
Forking a project is creating a drama now?

Was it the case when nodejs was forked?

https://www.infoworld.com/article/2854642/nodejs-gains-a-new...

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by arp242 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:55AM (#36122609)
This, I think, captures the problem quite well; "please don't do this, all it does is create drama!"

Maybe so, but the best way to end up with well-intentioned people absolutely hating each other is to never allow the airing of grievances.

I'm hugely in favour of kind, empathic, and thoughtful communication, and I don't like the "people yelling at each other"-type of projects to the point I simply don't participate. But part of that is also accepting that sometimes people express themselves in less-than-ideal ways, and allowing for the fact that sometimes conflicts happen, and that some amount of yelling and drama is necessarily for a healthy community (or indeed, most relationships between people) because we're all flawed and emotional beings. Rust took a good idea and pushed it to the extreme, which rarely works out well.

Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by somenameforme on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @05:04AM (#36122681)
I don't see how one could describe this as immature. Immature would seem to be just complaining endlessly, memeing, or otherwise being immature. Instead, they're unhappy with the direction of Mozilla/Rust, and found a perfectly good solution to the problem. That's awesome. This seems like one of the many benefits of truly open source software. You can fork not only to change code, but also culture.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by jntvjnvutnuvt on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @08:21AM (#36123945)
The Rust Foundation thinks it's okay to sue you for altering its logo. That is nuts.
Re:Rust has been forked to the Crab Language by WuxiFingerHold on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:20AM (#36125193)
The ongoing drama emerging from the leadership / foundation causes real damage to the language. I'm not sure if I like this move of forking Rust, but something has to change. And the change must be as visible as the drama to help Rust regain the lost reputation.