Marriage itself is not really more of a risk to a man than a woman. Shared property from the marriage will get divided up, but that affects women the same as men.

Having children is a slight risk because custody is a bit more likely to be given to women than men, so men are a bit more likely to have to pay child support.

Having a spouse who stops working to take care of children is a large risk for both partners. One risks having to pay alimony to support the non-working spouse; the other risks losing their earning potential from time spent out of the workforce.

> Having children is a slight risk because custody is a bit more likely to be given to women than men, so men are a bit more likely to have to pay child support.

Having a child is also more than a slight risk to the woman whose body is put through drastic change with unpredictable consequences and are still expected to keep working the same as before.

> Marriage itself is not really more of a risk to a man than a woman. Shared property from the marriage will get divided up, but that affects women the same as men.

This is how the law works on paper, but is it actually representative of the practice? There is far more sympathy for women than men, and how often does the woman outearn the man?

> Having children is a slight risk because custody is a bit more likely to be given to women than men, so men are a bit more likely to have to pay child support.

There is far more risk than that, and paying child support isn't the only issue here, having a broken home isn't fun. And why can't men opt out of child support like women can get abortions, or put kids for adoption etc.?

> Having a spouse who stops working to take care of children is a large risk for both partners. One risks having to pay alimony to support the non-working spouse; the other risks losing their earning potential from time spent out of the workforce.

Maybe women shouldn't be focused on the workforce to begin with

> Shared property from the marriage will get divided up, but that affects women the same as men.

That mainly seems to be an issue in the west and those who follow their way.

well if those are your beliefs about marriage then it's no surprise you don't like it, but they don't.. have to be... your beliefs. Huge numbers of people would vehemently argue with you if you said those beliefs in front of them. Maybe you should give them a chance to convince you otherwise?

Marriage by nature is a two way relationship. After being married for 30 years, its got its share of challenges for sure, but its a big part of learning to be part of a true team, and less of an individual. Especially true with children, life's greatest journey. If a man does everything right he has no need to worry about getting divorced. Good luck on doing everything right! But even if your wife would choose that after your efforts, you will have learned enough to make another women VERY happy. They learn to live with a lot less then perfect!

Yes, marriage is about trust. Trust makes you vulnerable, but it opens up a lot of life that just isnt possible otherwise.

Wonderfully put.

I met my (now) wife after a long relationship that'd ended somewhat messily. I made the conscious decision to go all-in on the new relationship because it could not possibly be what I wanted it to be if I didn't.

My wife and I were married about 5 months after meeting. My friends and family were worried that I was leaving myself vulnerable to being wiped out emotionally and financially if the marriage didn't work out. They were right, in a way. But sabotaging the relationship on order to stay safe seemed a far worse risk.

We're coming up on 18 years of marriage, so I'm glad I made that call. In an alternativee timeline where this relationship had failed, I'd like to think I'd still go all-in subsequently, but I can see how it would get harder and harder with each failed attempt.

“Responsibilities as a wife”—sorry, what are these supposed to be? Pretty sure there’s such a thing as “responsibilities as parents” and that one is ungendered and that’s why they are enshrined in laws, but what are “responsibilities as a wife”?

Though, of course, if you’re still thinking about gender norms, then either find someone who agrees with your expectations, or don’t be in a relationship at all because gender norms don’t actually matter to the work that goes into making a relationship or marriage work.

>“Responsibilities as a wife”—sorry, what are these supposed to be?

Figure that out and you'll get a committed partner for life. ;)

But to start, a wife is often the sole emotional support network that a man has, and in a healthy relationship his sole source of sex.

I know what it’s like to be in a long-term relationship that is effectively a marriage already, and while a good partner (looking past the gender issue with the language now) does take the effort to provide emotional support and even sex, I don’t think that it’s mature nor healthy to call such choices “responsibilities”, because responsibilities are things that people have the obligation to do regardless of their emotional and mental well-being.

If ignoring gender norms works so well, why are all the societies buying into this logic collapsing in terms of birth rates?

My own suspicion is that when both men and women participate equally in the work force, the economy adjusts so that it's impractical for just one to work.

I think equality is a good thing; it's just that we haven't learn how to structure society to not squeeze as much productivity as possible out of working-age people.

It's because all developed societies see collapses in birth rate since reproduction was a Ponzi scheme nature imposed upon us that, as the universal revealed preference, we're eager to escape given the chance. The first developed nations tend to be the most enlightened, which is why they're the most likely to challenge gender roles.

> society as completely absolved women of all responsibilities as a wife

Please elaborate.

sorry, I forgot that men aren't supposed to expect or want anything as part of a marriage. my mistake

I’m gonna stick my neck out and say that a man getting divorced did not, in fact, do everything right.

Yes it's always the man's fault /s

I'm not sure if you're implying that every single husband and wife pair is comprised of a man with more financial resources or if you're somehow convinced that divorce will always screw over a husband and benefit a wife regardless of their incomes, but either way, it sounds like whoever you think you would have married otherwise is the one who's dodging a bullet.

> it sounds like whoever you think you would have married otherwise is the one who's dodging a bullet.

Thats some next level bullshit. you're saying that because I'm scared of getting into a marriage, that she's the one "who's dodging a bullet"

Put another way, if a woman said she was scared of getting married, would you tell her that the man she would have married is "dodging a bullet?"

obviously not, it would be an incredibly messed up thing to say right?

This kind of "empathy" for men is precisely why its dangerous for men to get into marriage. I'll sit on my money and find other ways to find happiness in life thanks.

The issue isn't that you're afraid of getting married, it's that you're so fixated on lumping together entire 50% of the population into a bucket that you don't realize you don't marry an entire gender, you marry an individual. If you aren't able to get to the point with a potential spouse that you view them as unique and special to you and worthy of trust regardless of what demographic groups they happen to be a member of, then they deserve to be with someone else. This doesn't just apply in one direction; a man shouldn't be viewed as indistinguishable from other men to their prospective spouse, and if they are, they deserve someone else too.

> fixated on lumping together entire 50% of the population into a bucket

its not about fixating 50% into the bucket. its about incentives. there are plenty of good women for sure. the issue is there's a lot of predators out there too. And they will look and act like someone you'd want to marry. right up till its too late. You want to deny that most divorces are initiated by women? that women get custody (and the house) most of the time and that family courts are incentivized to do so because they GET A CUT? fine. But don't lecture me like I'm somehow being a less than moral person for pointing out the very obvious hazard.

If you meet the right person, go ahead and get married. but don't go in without knowing that its a one sided agreement that doesn't benefit men in the slightest.

I don't know what your standards are in terms of someone looking like "someone you'd want to marry" are, but if you think that the amount of depth most people want in a relationship with their partner is something that a non-trivial number of people could fake over a multiple year relationship, you're wildly off base. You're either grossly underestimating the degree of emotional connection that some people (including myself) would require for a long-term relationship or you're grossly overestimating the proportion of the dating pool who are highly skilled, manipulative sociopaths willing to spend years on con with a high risk of no payoff.