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Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by CalRobert on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:14AM (#35972885)
Hopefully we can do this for the species as a whole and gradually find equilibrium at a more sustainable population.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by DoingIsLearning on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:22AM (#35972938)
It's game theory the same as pollution.

"We" can do whatever we want but if not "everyone" is doing it then the impact is fairly limited.

You would be better off having children and just consuming less than making a grave decision that impacts your whole family tree for the sake of a Humanity collective that likely will not be making the same "sacrifice".

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by nelox on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:48AM (#35973174)
Er … for those potential parents already living at the economic margins, where having a child would be a demonstrably poor decision, then just having children and consuming less would help them or their children how?

Indeed, who is to say that the perpetuation of one’s family tree is at all desirable or necessary?

Maybe the best outcome is not to play the game at all.

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by CalRobert on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @07:10AM (#35973691)
I don't see how a two-child family is a sacrifice, really. But regardless, it seems like people have fewer children by choice as they become wealthier, have better access to education and birth control, etc.

How many families are large because the person who had to be pregnant had no real say in the matter?

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by exitb on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:18AM (#35972911)
Is there a factor that would make it stabilise at some equilibrium, rather than fall indefinitely?
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by dumpsterdiver on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:32AM (#35973035)
I believe so, yes. If birth rates continue to decline then the pool of available workers will decline, and their work will become much more valuable. At that point, workers will be making enough money to feel comfortable enough to have children again.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by pjc50 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:56AM (#35973229)
Exactly. I'm boggling at all these people who think that a dip is an inevitable decline and that civilisation will evaporate in a straight line without anyone ever thinking to change anything.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by dumpsterdiver on Thursday May 18, 2023 @11:52PM (#35997551)
On the other hand there is always the possibility that we regress to a sort of feudal age, and the lords of the land require that all inhabitants produce children while surviving off of the allotted amount of rations, otherwise they face consequences.

Edit: Not only are there natural corrections that occur, there is also a lot of room for human-made "corrections". Is it ugly? Yes. Is it unfair? Yes. Will it ensure that the local economy continues to function? Yes. The vast majority of us in such a scenario would live in poverty.

(This is where I go off the deep end) Imo, the proliferation of LLM's will truly lead to massive amounts of people being displaced from meaningful work. I foresee that in the not-so-distant future "normal people" who didn't attend elite institutions (or who are otherwise not extraordinary in some sense) will only find "flesh work" available to them - i.e. prostitutes. As long as human flesh exists there will always be work for humans. It's dark, I know, but ask yourself if it's true.

Disclaimer: I find prostitution appalling and sad, but it's existence is no secret.

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by CalRobert on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @07:10AM (#35973695)
Certainly. Continuing to grow the population ad infinitum could result in a population crash that settles down at 0 people after we have pushed the world to 5C+ warming.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by shjake on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:24AM (#35972961)
> find equilibrium

Like working into your 70s

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by gsich on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:17AM (#35972908)
Overpopulation is currently not a problem for humanity.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by another_story on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:41AM (#35973120)
Overconsumption certainly is, and that's tied to population.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by gsich on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:06AM (#35988120)
No, the average 1st world citizen consumes vastly more than 3rd world.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by mytailorisrich on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:38AM (#35973097)
It actually is considering that the root cause of our environmental problems is human activity and that billions of people are still poor.

For instance, when we're told we need to eat less meat, we'll it's not so much that meat production is a problem, it's that meat production for billions of people is a problem.

So all the constraining measures we're seeing either being suggested or enforced "for the environment/climate" are constraints to fit so many people on the planet.

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by CalRobert on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @07:06AM (#35973674)
Similarly, there are groups who encourage people to go vegetarian or vegan for the climate, which makes some sense, but considering how few people do so long-term we might be better served by encouraging people to treat beef, dairy, etc. as a treat (or at least not something you need 365 days a year) than forgoing these things completely.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by louwrentius on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:22AM (#35972946)
Indeed and it has been a dog whistle for the eugenics crowd since the 70s. https://twitter.com/IfBooksPod/status/1603412908184309760?la...
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by CalRobert on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @07:05AM (#35973657)
I don't understand how my comment has anything to do with Eugenics.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by louwrentius on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @08:12AM (#35974171)
Follow the link for context. The whole overpopulation topic is an old scare with ties to eugenics
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by CalRobert on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @08:46AM (#35974492)
I haven't said anything about "the wrong kind of people having babies" and have been pro-immigration in another comment so I don't see how this has anything to do with what I said.

Would 15 billion people be too many? 20 billion? Are we to imagine that Earth could support an infinite number of people? Because that seems like magical thinking to me. Though a different lifestyle (vegan, low energy consumption, etc.) would probably allow the current number to get by fine.

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by louwrentius on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @10:38AM (#35975829)
The world can sustain the current number of people many times over in terms of food supply. Indeed based on sustainable (vegetarian/vegan) food.

Talking about how many people can be sustained by earth is talking about the wrong thing. It only leads and HAS only lead to the eugenetics part. Because it's always poor people in different countries who gets sterilised.

The real topic is that capitalism and consumerism is 100% unsustainable, right from the start. That is the real debate to be had. That this world is not about human well-being and happyness, but about GDP and growth, making a tiny number of people wealthy at the expense and misery of the majority.

Unfortunately this site - Hacker News - and everything related to it, Ycombinator, Paul Graham, is only fueling the capitalist game.

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by CalRobert on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @12:13PM (#35977448)
I still don't see how my comment specifically relating to reductions in the birth rate in the US (a rich country) perhaps becoming a trend for all humans is remotely similar to sterilizing poor people in different countries.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by louwrentius on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:30PM (#35980872)
> and gradually find equilibrium at a more sustainable population.

You talk about "sustainable population", there's nothing not to understand about this. Sustainable implies it's now unsustainable, but that notion isn't true.

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by mytailorisrich on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:32PM (#35980894)
If we must all become vegeterian/vegan then to me that proves that the planet is currently overpopulated. In my view a sustainable population level is one that does not require drastic measures because ultimately we want the best quality of life we can have and not live like in a dystopian movie.
Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by louwrentius on Friday May 19, 2023 @08:13AM (#36000870)
Going vegetarian/vegan is about the environment, not about the number of people. Even with half of the world population, meat-based diets are unsustainable.

Why do people insist on making this an eugenics talking point?

The number of people is not the problem.

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by CalRobert on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @07:05AM (#35973656)
At what number would you consider it a problem?

For what it's worth, I would be delighted to live on a planet of 10 billion people who have found a way to live in a way that can persist for millenia, but we don't seem to have done so. Although, living in a well-insulated flat made with renewably-grown timber (a great carbon sink!) walking and biking distance from all of my daily needs where my meagre energy needs are met with 100% renewable energy (when I lived in San Diego I worked from home and our apartment's average load was 100 Watts so this can be done!) on a mostly-vegan diet and working 20 hours per week or less sounds pretty nice to me.

Re:The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007 by gsich on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:04AM (#35988095)
Probably 200 billion, going by population sensity.