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Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by aardvarkr on Friday May 12, 2023 @09:47AM (#35916210)
Lots of comments that didn’t read the article so here’s a good excerpt on why there’s a lawsuit.

Baltimore’s lawsuit says the companies “failed to keep up with industry standards,” and claim it was a result of business decisions made to reduce costs and boost profits “notwithstanding decades of academic literature and research supporting the deterrent effects” of anti-theft technology.

“The dramatically increased rate of Hyundai and Kia theft in Baltimore has required city and police resources that would not have been needed but for Hyundai and Kia’s deliberate failures,” the lawsuit says. “Car thieves — many of them teenagers— take advantage of these failures and engage in reckless driving, creating substantial safety risks to themselves and Baltimore residents and their property.”

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by aardvarkr on Friday May 12, 2023 @09:51AM (#35916292)
It’s also worth noting that this was all started with a viral TikTok video showing Hire ridiculously easy it is to steal a Kia/Hyundai is. Here’s a collection of graphs showing the before and after of theft data in major cities. https://usafacts.org/data-projects/car-thefts
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by klodolph on Friday May 12, 2023 @10:01AM (#35916472)
This echoes what happened in 2004 with Kryptonite locks and Bic pens.

Someone figured out that you could open a Kryptonite lock using a Bic pen, which has roughly the same shape as a tubular lock key. You did not need to use the actual key or pick the lock. There was a rash of bike thefts afterwards.

TikTok is a convenient scapegoat, but I think the problem would exist without TikTok, because it so closely echoes a similar situation from 2004. To be honest, I think that the manufacturer should bear the blame in both scenarios—it’s their responsibility to make sure that the products can withstand, for at least a few minutes, an unskilled thief with inconspicuous, unpowered, commonly available tools (like, a thief with no lock picks or angle grinders).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5efaWSWwlk

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by dwater on Friday May 12, 2023 @02:54PM (#35920577)
When that happened Kryptonite voluntarily created a free lock replacement program, where if you owned a tubular cylinder Kryptonite lock they replaced it for free, postage paid.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by User23 on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:36PM (#35921204)
Clearly the answer is to sue TikTok too. You’re brilliant be sure to demand a consulting fee.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by aimor on Friday May 12, 2023 @05:09PM (#35922441)
Those charts are great, really drives home how quickly trends like this explode and increase total car theft. Also interesting how regional it is, the exploit at its peak quadrupled car thefts in Milwaukee in less than a year so Baltimore has plenty of room for things to get worse.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by mh- on Friday May 12, 2023 @06:54PM (#35923569)
Am I missing something, or did they not do anything to adjust for how many Kias/Hyundais are in those cities?

That could explain why some cities saw much bigger spikes than others - or it might not! Feels sloppy.

edit: this obviously doesn't negate your point, there's clearly an enormous spike. It's just weird since the article took the time to break it down by city, and to call attention to some cities seeing larger spikes than others.

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by HillRat on Friday May 12, 2023 @09:59AM (#35916431)
These lawsuits are part of a longstanding effort by cities and states to try and develop a theory of manufacturer legal accountability through public nuisance law, an effort that is perhaps morally laudable but legally fraught; to date, other than a few outlier environmental cases from the '70s, courts have almost uniformly declined to create a kind of parallel product-liability law through nuisance. While individual car owners have legal recourse through traditional product liability and negligence routes, hard to see these cases succeeding in court; on the other hand, they do create some additional political pressure on Hyundai/Kia to take more responsibility, which is ultimately where the tobacco lawsuits in the '90s ended up -- not winning at the bench, but at the conference table.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by inconceivable on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:11PM (#35920829)
this is also seemingly the strategy for anti-gun manufacturer efforts. so far they don't seem to be successful.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by lesuorac on Friday May 12, 2023 @06:15PM (#35923182)
Can you clarify?

Afaik, lawsuits again gun manufacturers are actually successful [1].

[1]: https://apnews.com/article/sandy-hook-school-shooting-reming...

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by inconceivable on Friday May 12, 2023 @07:31PM (#35923816)
oh right, i forgot, the mass shootings stopped.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by HillRat on Sunday May 14, 2023 @12:35PM (#35939200)
Thanks to tort carveouts in the PLCAA, liability suits against firearms manufacturers have additional hurdles to overcome; the Remington settlement was surprising because the plaintiffs would have had a hard time prevailing at trial. It’s likely that Remington (which settled without admitting fault), didn’t want to run the risk of sympathetic plaintiffs managing to kick a state-level hole in their otherwise ironclad federal protection against product liability suits.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by theGnuMe on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:25PM (#35921022)
The auto manufacturers absolutely have liability.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by amanaplanacanal on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:28PM (#35921076)
Can you point to some case law supporting that position? Or some sort of legal analysis?
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by theGnuMe on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:38PM (#35921231)
The words you want to google are "Public" "Liability" "Nuisance" "Tort"
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by lordloki on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:53PM (#35921437)
So you have no evidence to back up your assertion. Got it.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by giantg2 on Friday May 12, 2023 @10:01AM (#35916470)
“The dramatically increased rate of Hyundai and Kia theft in Baltimore has required city and police resources that would not have been needed but for Hyundai and Kia’s deliberate failures,”

I'd like to see the data here. Is there any indication that the crime wouldn't be present in other areas of life? Would the people committing these crimes be law-abiding citizens if not for the temptation of these cars being easier to steal? Or would the police resources be spent on alternate crimes? It seems the common denominator here is people willing to commit crimes, not the city's claim that it "would not have been" if the company increased security.

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by aardvarkr on Friday May 12, 2023 @10:10AM (#35916611)
Here’s the link that I posted above with data showing the before and after. It’s quite stark just how big of a spike there has been in theft. https://usafacts.org/data-projects/car-thefts
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by giantg2 on Friday May 12, 2023 @12:02PM (#35918081)
Not exactly the data I was looking for. This is very niche and not from a more comprehensive level. However, the city level data seems to show that some cities are not seeing a higher spike, but others are. Without any real analysis, this seems to indicate that there are other factors at play than simply Kias being easier to steal.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by giantg2 on Friday May 12, 2023 @07:28PM (#35923797)
Why are people disagreeing with this? If you run an experiment looking at a variable change and it doesn't change much in some places but changes a lot in others, then wouldn't this prove that there are other variables at play - that it couldn't possibly be that single variable itself?
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by local_crmdgeon on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:14PM (#35920861)
This. The problem is that Baltimore treats crime as being separate from criminals.

Almost all crime is committed by a tiny, tiny group of people - in NYC, 327 people commit 1/3rd of all shoplifting. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/15/nyregion/shoplifting-arre...

We used to just warehouse people like this, and we stopped because that was mean and did not get us likes on Instagram.

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by pfannkuchen on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:41PM (#35921276)
There is a theoretical limit to the rate at which a society can digest unsocialized people, and this is affected by the exposed surface area of the clumps of unsocialized people. Where by “unsocialized” I mean with respect to that particular society - people in any society are “unsocialized” with respect to any other sufficiently separate society. We seem to have run into a case of serious indigestion. Traditionally we warehoused people who weren’t being digested successfully. Why we stopped is a really interesting question.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by local_crmdgeon on Friday May 12, 2023 @04:26PM (#35921905)
I absolutely agree. I hate that "lock up criminals" has become a race-loaded statement, because in Baltimore (and in my neighborhood) the victims are Black/POC. This doesn't impact Becky on IG, it impacts the older people who spent their lives turning America's urban areas around.

It's really, really unjust.

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by ironcurtain on Monday May 15, 2023 @09:05PM (#35956606)
Do you have any tangible data to back up the first sentence or is it just a desire to avoid facing hard reality?
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by pfannkuchen on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @01:05AM (#35957918)
You mean the hard reality that a society can digest an infinite number of unsocialized people instantaneously?
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by jameshart on Friday May 12, 2023 @04:10PM (#35921655)
They might be committing other crimes, but at least they would not be speeding around in stolen Kias and Hyundais. That seems like a win.

Easily stolen cars lead to nuisance behavior that affects far more than the immediate victim of the theft.

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by giantg2 on Friday May 12, 2023 @07:29PM (#35923803)
That depends. It's likely less of an issue if they know they can steal a car without confrontation than say car jacking or robbery, which carry a higher risk of people being hurt.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by hgsgm on Friday May 12, 2023 @09:55AM (#35916372)
Are these standards written somewhere?

If it's required, it should be documented.

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by harimau777 on Friday May 12, 2023 @10:20AM (#35916746)
I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it, this sort of thing is generally based on a reasonable person standard. I.e. would a reasonable person assume that if their car requires a key to start, then it cannot be started with something as trivial as a USB key?
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by Fatnino on Friday May 12, 2023 @02:56PM (#35920613)
I keep hearing this vague claim that the cars can be started with a usb key. How does this work? Is there a usb port that reads some secret file off the USB key? Is it just the USB plug shape that fits somewhere in the car that forces it to turn on?
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by moffkalast on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:15PM (#35920887)
Here's a demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTeVgfPM0Xw

Apparently it's more of a joke, you can do it completely bare handed if you don't mind tearing some plastic and manage to grab a finicky bit. The cars have no immobilizers at all apparently.

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by mattkrause on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:32PM (#35921141)
I think (not a car thief!) that starting the car just requires turning something approximately USB-shaped; the electronics in the key don't matter.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by toast0 on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:15PM (#35920875)
As I understand it, USB-A plugs fit the ignition lock cylinder and will turn it. Unknown if you have to flip it and reverse it a minimum of two times before achieving usb-a super position and being able to plug in.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by lcw on Friday May 12, 2023 @10:12AM (#35916647)
The point of the lawsuit seems to be to create case law that would influence standards and/or a requirements for automotive security features.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by prottog on Friday May 12, 2023 @03:37PM (#35921209)
Kia should countersue because Baltimore fails to keep up with being a city in a developed country.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by meragrin_ on Friday May 12, 2023 @05:19PM (#35922557)
> Lots of comments that didn’t read the article so here’s a good excerpt on why there’s a lawsuit.

Yea, I don't think that is it.

> "Car thieves ... engage in reckless driving, creating substantial safety risks to themselves and Baltimore residents and their property."

I don't see anything about Hyundai or Kia taking the cars for joy rides. They are not going out and encouraging people to steal their cars. They are not responsible for enforcing community standards. There is no law which states they must use any certain anti-theft technology. The cars are in no way malfunctioning. So why is there a lawsuit?

Why not go after the owners? They bought the cars and didn't care whether they had anti-theft technology.

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by narag on Friday May 12, 2023 @05:25PM (#35922622)
Lots of comments that didn’t read the article...

I didn't read it either... because I'd read a bunch of other articles and watched videos about the problem a couple of months ago.

IMHO the root cause is that it's impossible with current legislation/courts practice to deter this kind of behaviour. Specifically:

* Many of the perpetrators are minors

* Stealing a car, depending on cirsumstances, is a misdemeanor

* There is no mounting of repeated offenses

* Police can't keep the suspects on custody for long and prosecution is overkill for the results

So more or less, stealing a car is free. And instead of fixing the above points (maybe Baltimore as a city can't do that on its own) the "solution" is suing car makers.

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by prepend on Friday May 12, 2023 @06:34PM (#35923379)
Auto theft in Maryland is a felony. What are thieves being charged with that’s not a felony?
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by narag on Friday May 12, 2023 @07:22PM (#35923756)
Sorry, it's been a couple of months and I can't remember the details. Is there a different threshold for minors? I don't know your legal system and maybe I "translated" what I was hearing with ours in mind. Or the article was about another state.

I do remember that the police officers were very clear that they can do nothing. Even if the arrest the kids, the DA won't prosecute them.

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by emodendroket on Friday May 12, 2023 @07:47PM (#35923928)
Yeah, I'd take that with a grain of salt. Police officers always feel they're not being given free enough rein and their budgets are too low.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by alphanullmeric on Friday May 12, 2023 @06:40PM (#35923447)
And you should be sued for leaving your door unlocked if you get robbed, and the guy that robbed you should be pampered by the government as a victim of the system.
Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by jaclaz on Saturday May 13, 2023 @09:22AM (#35928111)
In EU immobilizers were mandated in 1998, 2001 in Australia, 2007 Canada.

I.e. it wasn't like the manufacturers decided that they were useful, they were forced to introduce them by the national or pan-national authorities.

If the US didn't mandate them, the reference to industry standards is - at best - a very feeble one, the city of Baltimore could - maybe - sue the NHTSA

Re:Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts by phendrenad2 on Saturday May 13, 2023 @12:02PM (#35929663)
The headline literally matches the content of the article, even the quotes you posted. So saying that people "didn't read the article" is a strange claim.