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Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by prepend on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:08PM (#35894748)
> I would not make a publicly searchable blog or Github repository if I were well-versed in setting such RDS on-premises

You won’t. But I will and I think others will as well. My goal is to help people set up RDS and I don’t care about commercialization. So happy if AI reuses all the material.

There are many technical blogs that are just hobbies, or fun, or brand PR, or book tie ins or whatever.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by Alupis on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:37PM (#35895090)
You aren't helping people, though, you're helping a for-profit company earn billions of dollars off your, and other's good will and knowledge. The for-profit company is helping people, in exchange for direct and/or indirect monetization.

Your blog post's knowledge-dump ends up never being seen.

This is why StackOverflow reacted so poorly to Stack Exchange's announcement they would be using all of your hard work to train a for-profit model.

It might not be illegal - but it sure does feel weird, at a minimum.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by jefftk on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:21PM (#35895538)
I feel similarly to prepend: I often write things up because I want to help people by sharing knowledge. I don't care whether people get that knowledge via directly seeing it on my site vs hearing it second hand from a friend vs reading it in LLM output.

It's not important that my contribution go directly from me to the other person; what matters is that they get the information they're looking for.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by Alupis on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:24PM (#35895568)
How do you know anyone ever gets this information?
Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by jefftk on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:28PM (#35895602)
I don't have a strong feedback loop here, but I generally figure that if I make it public then search engines (or now LLMs) will give it to people who want it.
Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by Alupis on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:33PM (#35895652)
A lot like shouting into the wind.

With a blog post - you get feedback via comments. With SO, you get feedback via votes and comments. With HN, you get feedback the same way.

We have feedback on all of these systems so that humans can more readily discern correctness. An AI model is not going to be able to readily understand what solution is correct, lest it wouldn't need to crawl the page in the first place.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by jefftk on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:35PM (#35895673)
Almost all of my feedback today is via comments immediately after I post something, but I suspect more of the readers are people who come in via search. That's not that different from a future in which the searchers are intermediated by an LLM.
Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by edmundsauto on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:24PM (#35895562)
> Your blog post's knowledge-dump ends up never being seen.

I don't think this is true - it ends up being added to a soup of knowledge that is ladled out as people ask about it. It might not directly be seen, but it may contribute more to the overall knowledge about the space since OP's knowledge is now able to be sliced, diced, and recombined.

It sucks for the individual who wants to be credited, and it is annoying that megacorps will benefit directly. But for someone who wants to increase the knowledge in the world, it's not so bad...

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by Alupis on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:28PM (#35895610)
> But for someone who wants to increase the knowledge in the world, it's not so bad...

You may actually be decreasing the knowledge of the world.

It's not difficult to imagine a future where people do not know how to effectively communicate, and instead rely on ChatGPT (or whatever) to communicate for them. Or a future where nobody knows anything, and instead blindly trusts the output of AI models.

There's already dating services that let your ChatGPT bot woo someone else's ChatGPT bot...

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by kajaktum on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:45PM (#35895766)
I think you are just hating on LLMs because its a new thing. You can similarly argue that internet will ruin our social life because we no longer have to go to the library and meet with strangers researching up similar topics. But I don’t see anyone arguing against internet?

Progress is here, old man. Thinking that people will deliberately go out of their way to grok through pages of PDF documentations hoping to find that one line of relevant information instead of just asking is stupid and misguided.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by wwweston on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @11:37PM (#35897076)
> think you are just hating on LLMs because its a new thing.

Along with your "old man" dig, the fact that you have to attribute hidden motives to someone who's got specific concerns elaborated in their comment doesn't do you any favors.

> You can similarly argue that internet will ruin our social life because we no longer have to go to the library and meet with strangers researching up similar topics. But I don’t see anyone arguing against internet?

I know smart people who argue that paper maps reduce social ties because they remove the necessity to ask for directions. They're not wrong. It doesn't mean maps aren't really useful, or that they even want maps gone. It means they're paying attention to dynamics and maybe even better prepared to fine-tune them by introducing something else to the system.

People do argue against "the internet", btw -- the problem of determining authority/reliability of an internet source, hidden incentives of search or feed algorithms, sand castles, and yes the capacity for isolation or echo chambers from virtual interaction. They're not wrong either.

> Progress is here

Change is here. Thoughtful people can recognize that comes with potential advantages and look with concern on hazards and disadvantages.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by edmundsauto on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @09:33PM (#35896143)
How does your example (bots chatting with bots on dating sites) decrease knowledge? I can see that it dilutes knowledge, but overall isn't the size of the pie decreased?
Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by swores on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:36AM (#35898527)
Isn't it possible for knowledge to be effectively different based on how much incorrect stuff there is?

For example if one person knows two correct facts about a specific sport, and another person knows those same 2 correct facts as well as 2 false facts, and doesn't know which 2 are true or false, isn't the second person less knowledgeable about that sport than the first person, despite technically having the same amount of true facts on the subject?

Equally, even if the amount of known knowledge in the world remains the same, isn't a world in which every human while studying spends every minute learning true stuff vs. spending half their time reading made up stuff, won't people on average be less knowledgeable despite the fact that no global knowledge got destroyed in the process? (Ofc there's never been a time when it's possible to spend 100% of the time learning completely accurate stuff, hypothetical exaggeration there.)

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by 8note on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:30PM (#35895630)
Sure you're helping people. The ai gets trained and thens tells people the stuff you learned

The billion dollar company was already profiting off that goodwill by putting ads beside people looking for it

As far as the blog is self advertising for your resume or company, it's just as good since you're linking it directly. Maybe even better since the ai will have opinions about you

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by twelve40 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @03:05AM (#35898756)
> Maybe even better since the ai will have opinions about you

what does that even mean?? and how in the world is it better than receiving direct visitors from Google as a reward for posting??

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by mensetmanusman on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @09:02PM (#35895906)
“You aren't helping people, though, you're helping a for-profit company earn billions of dollars off your, and other's good will and knowledge.“

No. He is helping people and he is helping for profit companies.

Both are true at the same time. You can’t help people without also helping the companies. Wealth generation is not zero sum.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by concordDance on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @09:17PM (#35896025)
> You aren't helping people

This seems trivially false. Even if the info just gets sucked into an LLM there will still be people helped.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by prepend on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @10:19PM (#35896529)
> You aren't helping people, though, you're helping a for-profit company earn billions of dollars off your, and other's good will and knowledge.

This has all been played out before. I’m cool helping companies along with people.

Imagine you discover free energy. Would you not give it away because you don’t want billion dollar companies to benefit?

I have a choice to give away info or keep it. Id rather give it away than not. I’m not going to sell info. It’s not worth the time for whatever negligible gains it would make.

Even if there was a magic way to only allow “good people” and not companies to use my info, I’d still allow companies because I think information should be freely given and exchanged and hope that others feel the same.

Imagine where we would be if Linux wasn’t used by billion dollar companies. The world would be way worse. Amazon would be poorer but the world would be much poorer.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by hammyhavoc on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @11:37PM (#35897073)
If you discovered free energy then you and your family are probably getting whacked rather than disrupt the billionaire-class who depend on scarcity, artificial or otherwise.
Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by com2kid on Thursday May 11, 2023 @01:03AM (#35897766)
Governments have basically subsidized energy so that it is as close as possible to free for generations now. Tons of industrial processes rely on super cheap energy, one reason China has such a powerful steel industry is because of how cheap energy is over there.

Energy is one of many inputs into industrial systems, and it is a fairly commoditized one at that.

Free energy doesn't mean you don't need tons of infrastructure still in place, tons of parts and labor to install that infrastructure, factories to make the parts of that infrastructure. And then when it comes to using that energy, large capital expenditures are still needed to get up and running, which means the rich will keep getting richer.

Or to put it another way, electric cars + solar panels are totally a thing you can do right now, and at no point was anyone's life put at risk to bring these about.

Odds are the first country to get free energy would see obscene economic growth, all sorts of absurd things become possible. For start, salt water + energy => fresh water, solving the droughts that our farmlands are facing.

All metal processing uses tons of energy.

Meanwhile, my local electric co, Puget Sound Energy doesn't even make a billion a year in profits. The nation's largest energy company, Exelon, barely clears 2 billion in profits per year.

Microsoft makes more profit in a week than the nation's largest energy company does in a year.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by hammyhavoc on Thursday May 11, 2023 @01:37AM (#35898026)
Whilst I don't disagree with a lot of the points you're making (they're great):

ExxonMobil's operating revenue is $413.7bn USD. I'll be surprised if someone isn't getting whacked if they let the free energy genie out of the bottle.

Energy isn't cheap in the UK. Far from it. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/electric-...

My family lived in South Africa post-WWII because my gruncle's skin grafts wouldn't take in the UK climate. The Kariba dam gave free electricity to the surrounding area, the idea that this was something people paid for elsewhere just blew the minds of everybody there. Free energy is not a new thing.

However, politics and socioeconomics play a big part in whether or not a country can make successful use of energy, but the possibility of something being possible doesn't mean it'll happen. Furthermore, today, water reserves are a problem for the dam, and power generation was being suspended late last year due to it.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by com2kid on Thursday May 11, 2023 @03:25PM (#35907163)
> ExxonMobil's operating revenue is $413.7bn USD. I'll be surprised if someone isn't getting whacked if they let the free energy genie out of the bottle.

Most of ExxonMobil's revenue seems to come from oil (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1034911/exxonmobil-reven...), where as I presume free electricity would primarily impact their natural gas revenue.

Also isn't ExxonMobil one of those strange vertically integrated situations where most of their revenue comes from themselves? They drill the oil, then process it through their own plants which results in them paying themselves lots of money, but I may be mis-remembering that.

Anyway, solar is coming, wind is coming, and electric cars are coming, and no one is getting gunned down in the streets.

Heck China would love infinite free energy! So would any other country that wants completely dominate heavy industry overnight.

> Energy isn't cheap in the UK.

It has been a long time since the UK highly subsidized heavy manufacturing.

Energy prices have of course been going up everywhere, as, most people, realize cheap energy that results in dead kids and cancer for everyone was, in retrospect, really stupid.

> Furthermore, today, water reserves are a problem for the dam, and power generation was being suspended late last year due to it.

Infinite free energy would solve all water reserve problems, although it might end up being an environmental disaster near ocean shorelines...

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by prepend on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:01AM (#35899616)
Perhaps, but that doesn’t answer my question.

Would you release or keep it a secret?

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by motoxpro on Thursday May 11, 2023 @01:57AM (#35898211)
very eloquently put
Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by scarface74 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @09:22AM (#35901644)
They were upset when StackOverFlow, a for profit company announced using their answers to train a model. But they added content to the same for profit site for free?

Especially when they knew it was allowed by the CCL?

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by koreth1 on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:38PM (#35895101)
> My goal is to help people set up RDS and I don’t care about commercialization.

This feels like the same philosophical difference that leads to debates about GPL vs. Apache licenses. The "how dare someone else make money using my work" camp vs. the "if someone else is able to make money using my work, more power to them" camp.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by pydry on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:11PM (#35895437)
That was more about Google/Microsoft crying about not being given absolute freedom to do whatever they wanted with somebody else's IP.

Google even banned AGPL at one point from its code hosting platform - it was that upset with open source.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by fabrice_d on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:13PM (#35895462)
Monetization is not what GPL vs. Apache license is about, even if that's often how the Apache proponents want to paint things.

The GPL doesn't prevent you from making money; it only requires you to contribute your changes back. That way others can also make money based on your work, like... you just did!

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by prepend on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:05AM (#35899643)
> The GPL doesn't prevent you from making money; it only requires you to contribute your changes back.

I think it does though as if my contribution is made public others are less likely to buy it.

With Apache/etc, I can make modifications and sell more easily.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by prepend on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:08AM (#35899668)
I agree and have been having this discussion for decades of people who don’t care and just want their work to help others (Apache/bsd/mit/etc) vs those that want to have a specific ideology furthered (gpl) that all software should be free.

It’s not exactly the same, but I’ve frequently heard “I don’t want someone to take my code and just sell it.” So want to use gpl or some other license that opens but prohibits selling. I don’t think the latter really works out that well, but people seem to ask for it quite a bit.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by post-it on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:13PM (#35894814)
Yup. Commercializing things is hard. If I want to share info, I'll make a Reddit post or maybe a blog post if it's something lengthy.

If I want to paywall it, I don't know where to start. I imagine there's keys-included solutions, but I doubt they can just send me e-transfers for each payment. Maybe they can send money to my PayPal? I've never used that for receiving money before. Do I need a business bank account? Will transparency rules require me to share my address publicly? Maybe I need a PO box. I just wanted to share something helpful.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by gumballindie on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:53PM (#35895263)
> Yup. Commercializing things is hard.

If they are in abundance or in low demand.

Re:Google I/O: Big changes coming for SEOs with ubiquitous AI by FridgeSeal on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:15PM (#35895470)
Ha, jokes on you, I’ll just be using LLM’s to churn out obscene amounts of plausible-sounding-but-actually-incorrect amounts of content on the same topics, hosted across a variety of domains. Almost anything shortcut LLM’s provide can be a countered and aggressively wrapped in return.

N.B. I’m not actually going to do this, but it’s still a straightforward attack.