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Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by somat on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @03:19PM (#35892162)
BMC's in general leave me uneasy.

I like the idea, it is a small computer that is used to monitor and control your big computer. But hate the implementation. Why are they all super secret special firmware blobs? Why can't I just install my linux of choice and run the manufacturers software? This would still suck but not as bad as the full stack nonsense they foist on you at this point.

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by theideaofcoffee on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @03:40PM (#35892454)
They’re special firmware blobs because generally the OEMs aren’t building their BMCs from scratch as they might with their main boards and other components. They’re generally getting the bmc SoC from the likes of Aspeed and others who are the ones keeping them closed up. I’ve tried to get the magic binaries and source but there are so many layers of NDAs and sales gatekeepers. I’m not entirely sure who makes the dell bmcs but I know supermicro bundles Aspeed (at least they did with older generations of their main boards.)

I agree with you that you should be able to run whatever since in the end it’s just another computer, but the manufacturers believe otherwise since there’s “valuable IP” or whatever (insert rollseyes emoji here).

There are open specs like redfish but still doesn’t get to the heart of the matter.

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by jebr224 on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:04PM (#35894685)
It is complicated.

AMI sells a bmc software stack, https://www.ami.com/megarac/ Intel and small manufacturer were unhappy, about always paying the ami tax. So intel created openbmc, as a hedge against ami's monopoly for small manufacturers. I have heard Openbmc has user from facebook, google, ibm, bytdance, and ali.

Dell owns their own stack in idrac, I have heard most of their systems are nuvoton based. I am suspect dell pays some big bucks to keep their systems at feature parity with the other options, and they view it as a an investment.

There are also silicon devices on the motherboard, that have drivers that are not able to be shared. So it not surprising that companies don't share source in a way that would be useful.

If you wanted a system that as a bmc that could be tested try the asrock-e3c246d4c, it looks like there are hobbyist, that have it running coreboot, and openbmc. (impressively)

https://9esec.io/blog/coreboot-on-the-asrock-e3c246d4c/

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by mkj on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @11:02PM (#35896819)
Aspeed aren't the ones keeping them closed - OpenBMC running on Aspeed chips is an option chosen by some system vendors. It's a vendor choice whether to go with an open platform or a closed BMC from AMI etc.

https://github.com/AspeedTech-BMC/openbmc (or see the upstream OpenBMC tree)

HPE are adding some OpenBMC support https://www.hpe.com/us/en/compute/openbmc-proliant-servers.h...

This work from Supermicro looked promising https://lore.kernel.org/openbmc/CACPK8XdE0sRmt4x54YJVJO2wDT5...

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by donalhunt on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @03:39PM (#35892445)
Was responsible for trying to improve the management and operation of a large fleet of BMCs for a while. Plenty of bugs and pace of releases is slow. :(

Definitely an area where a more open ecosystem would improve the pace of innovation.

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by hinkley on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:04PM (#35892719)
We need a Linux for BMCs. Oxide is working on one, but I'd like to see a contender fielded from the seL4 community, along with some other folks. For example, why doesn't Wind River have one already?
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by wmf on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:24PM (#35892973)
OpenBMC is the leader at this point.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by NexRebular on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:16PM (#35892863)
Why linux? Why not *BSD?
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by gaius_baltar on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:26PM (#35893000)
> Why linux? Why not *BSD?

GPL can force manufacturers to cooperate with users. Of course, they can still use closed source binary modules and userland programs ...

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by NexRebular on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:32PM (#35893069)
GPL can also turn manufacturers away. I would rather have variation in the possible BMC operating systems instead of sticking linux everywhere and contributing to a monoculture.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by ilyt on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:45PM (#35893248)
...which you wouldn't get with BSD as they'd just close it down and ship you binary, as they would have no obligation or reason to.

The BSD "freedom" is not for the user of the software, it's for corporation to take.

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by NexRebular on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:53PM (#35893355)
And how would this affect the original open BSD-based BMC firmware which would be available? If the corporations want to maintain their own fork, it's on them.

The original BSD release will stay open and free for everyone to utilize.

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by IntelMiner on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @06:19PM (#35894257)
How can you trust that a closed source OpenBSD fork is secure when there's no way to audit the quality (or lack thereof) in the firmware the vendor gives you?

If it's GPL you can at least interrogate the code release and make an informed decision

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by NexRebular on Thursday May 11, 2023 @03:57PM (#35907609)
The same way I can trust all the binary blobs vendors stick into GPL-licensed systems. How do I make an informed decision about those?
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by wmf on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @05:59PM (#35894074)
Software diversity is a luxury customers won't pay for.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by taneq on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @06:48PM (#35894518)
That sure sounds appealing to manufacturers.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by wmf on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:43PM (#35895137)
Once it reaches critical mass it is appealing because the value you receive from the community is far greater than what you have to give back.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by zrm on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:51AM (#35898644)
If the point is code diversity, what stops you producing a fork of BSD for BMCs under the GPL?
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by chasil on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @05:07PM (#35893533)
Sometimes the bugs end up at a security conference.

https://airbus-seclab.github.io/ilo/BHUSA2021-Slides-hpe_ilo...

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by WaitWaitWha on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @03:48PM (#35892556)
Was responsible to poke at BMC security in data centers.

BMCs lack the security fundamentals and often behave like cheap IoT knock-offs. They often use outdated kernels, libraries, and security mechanism.

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by kabdib on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:53PM (#35893362)
Ran a fleet of servers with terrible BMCs. We kept those on a well-sealed-off private network.

Woe betide you if you run into one of the BMC implementations that shares a host network interface; no separate cable! These things are terrible from a security standpoint.

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by septune on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @05:53PM (#35894020)
i hope you disable OS passtrough because it could be gore
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by jdwithit on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @05:35PM (#35893851)
Yeah they are utter garbage. For years you had to use Java 6 with absolutely every modern security measure turned off in both the JVM runtime itself and your browser to access Dell DRACs. Accept expired certs, run unsigned code, I'm sure this is all fine ...

I mostly work in the cloud now but when I last had to manage a bunch of physical machines we had a physically separate network accessed via its own VPN to get onto the BMCs. Because yeah, the security situation was a joke.

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by hsbauauvhabzb on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @06:33PM (#35894392)
I found that if you leave your bmc unplugged on a super micro, it’ll conveniently bridge it to whatever other Ethernet is plugged in, meaning an outage of your management network may roll over to another network unintentionally.

Id put money on there being preauth vulnerabilities in those things, judging by the engineering quality.

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by neilv on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:21PM (#35894921)
That sounds like showstopper for many sites.

On a much less-important note, it might explain some weirdness I'm seeing lately with one of my home Supermicro servers. (The docs say the BMC should only listen on one port, but the switch still sees some degree of responsiveness on the normal non-management port when "off".)

Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by tryauuum on Thursday May 11, 2023 @12:46AM (#35897640)
I believe you can override this behavior in BMC settings
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by cperciva on Thursday May 11, 2023 @03:34AM (#35898990)
The S in BMC stands for "Security".
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by Y_Y on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:03PM (#35892711)
It may no be "enterprise" enough for a given employer, by it's not hard to replicate most of this functionality with cheap (and open) hardware. For example I had a case that called for BMC that I resolved with a spare raspi3b, a very cheap capture device and a "smart plug". Total cost of materials was about 30 euro and (for me) it wasn't any harder to operate that an idrac.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by Tijdreiziger on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:19PM (#35894902)
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by ilyt on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:43PM (#35893229)
It would also be sooo much easier to automate everything if it just ran slightly custom Debian install instead of... whatever the fuck abomination manufacturer made.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by yjftsjthsd-h on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @05:39PM (#35893878)
Actually, why aren't they literally normal little computers? Like, fully open, bring your own OS computers. All it needs is some peripherals - Ethernet, its own host USB, gadget mode USB to present mouse/kb/storage to the main computer, video capture card, some GPIO to control power - but there's nothing all that special there; then you just install Debian or w/e and control the perfectly standard interfaces at will.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by wmf on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @05:58PM (#35894060)
The interface between the BMC and motherboard is unique to each motherboard, especially for "added value" features that some servers have. DC-SCM is working on standardizing this but I don't know how interoperable it will be.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by croutonwagon on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:26PM (#35894983)
Personally I have some pikvms at home. And while not full parity to idrac enterprise, and it takes some extra effort to get atx, I have STRONGLY been considering dropping them in our DC to at least replace the dell ipkvm that frankly is a security nightmare.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by scifi on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @06:04PM (#35894119)
To add to this, manufacturers (HPE) are now requiring an expensive annual fee in order for customers to use the hardware.
Re:Reverse engineering Dell iDRAC to get rid of GPU throttling by pabs3 on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @11:12PM (#35896894)
I hear that many BMCs internally just run Linux.