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Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by akiselev on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @08:58PM (#35882346)
If you spent even more time with GPT-4 it would be evident that it is definitely not. Especially if you try to use it as some kind of autonomous agent.
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by derefr on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @09:41PM (#35882613)
AI research has put hardly any effort into building goal-directed agents. It's all focused on basically making systems that — in neurological terms — are given a sensory stimulus of a question, and then passively "dream" a response to said question.

I don't think there's a single dollar of funding in AI right now going to the "problem" of making an AI that has terminal preferences, sets instrumental goals to achieve those preferences, iteratively observes the environment and makes predictions of how well its actions will help optimize the future toward its preferences, etc.

Though, interestingly, it might not even be that hard a problem, compared to all the problems being solved in AI right now. A fruit fly is already a goal-directed agent in the sense described above. Yet a fruit fly has only 200K neurons, and very few of the connections between those neurons are dynamic; most are "hard wired" by [probably] genetics.

If we want true ALife, we only need to understand what a fruit fly brain is doing, and then model it. And that model will then fit — with room to spare! — on a single GPU. From a decade ago.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by necroforest on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @10:06PM (#35882790)
> AI research has put hardly any effort into building goal-directed agents

The entire (enormous) field of reinforcement learning begs to differ.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by robwwilliams on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @12:44AM (#35883728)
Brilliant comment—-and back to basics.

Yes, and put that compact fruit fly in silico brain into my Roomba please so that it does not get stuck under the bed.

This is the kind of embodied AI that should really worry us.

Don’t we all suspect deep skunkworks “defense” projects of these types?

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by pmontra on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @05:54AM (#35885471)
Well, flies and all sort of flying bugs are very good at getting into homes and very bad at finding a way out. They stick on a closed window and can't find the open one next to it.
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by quincey on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @12:52PM (#35890001)
There's no genetic advantage to "finding a way out"! The home barrier way in is a genetic hurdle - flies that cross it are free to reproduce in an abundant environment. This calls for a "quieter" fly (a stealth fly?) who annoys the local beasts minimally - yet another genetic hurdle.
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by stormfather on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @11:11AM (#35888518)
I wouldn't assume a single biological neuron is simple like an artificial neuron is.

Computationally, a biological neuron is equivalent to something like an entire artificial neural net.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by hackernewds on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @09:11PM (#35882432)
If you spent even more time with GPT-4 it would be evident that it definitely is. Especialy if you try to use it as some kind of autonomous agent.

(Notice how baseless comments can sway either way)

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by taneq on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @09:29PM (#35882549)
> (Notice how baseless comments can sway either way)

No they can’t! ;)

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by 8bitsrule on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @11:24PM (#35883280)
Let's let John Cleese decide. Or maybe someone was looking for Abuse!
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by callalex on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @11:03PM (#35883174)
Engaging with this is probably a mistake, but remember the burden of proof is on the claimant. What examples do you have of ChatGPT for example, learning in a basic classroom setting, or navigating an escape room, or being inspired to create its own spontaneous art, or founding a startup, or…
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by p1esk on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @09:10PM (#35882427)
What have you tried to do with it?
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by akiselev on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @10:45PM (#35883057)
Use it to analyze the California & US Code, the California & Federal Codes of Regulation, and bills currently in the California legislation & Congress. It's far from useless but far more useful for creative writing than any kind of understanding or instruction following when it comes to complex topics.

Even performing a map-reduce over large documents to summarize or analyze them for a specific audience is largely beyond it. A 32K context size is a pittance when it comes to a single Title in the USC or CFR, which average into the millions of tokens each.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by p1esk on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @11:55PM (#35883471)
Interesting - do you believe average humans (not professional lawyers) would do better on this task?
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by akiselev on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @12:16AM (#35883592)
Yes. I can parse them just fine after reading a single book called Introduction to Legal Reasoning [1]. I can also autonomously take notes and keep track of a large context using a combination of short and long term memory not having any kind of degree let alone experience or a license to practice law.

How do you think people become lawyers and how smart do you actually think the average lawyer is? The problem is that there's hundreds of thousands if not millions of pages, not that it requires superhuman intelligence to understand.

Even if it were capable of intelligence in the bottom quartile of humanity it would be SO MUCH more useful than it is now because I'd be able run and get something useful out of thousands of models in parallel. As it stands now GPT4 fails miserably at scaling up the kind of reasoning and understanding that even relatively stupid humans are capable of.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Legal-Reasoning-Edward-L...

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by streakfix on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @12:53AM (#35883769)
Did you try fine tuning gpt4 with that book as input?
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by akiselev on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @01:07AM (#35883848)
OpenAI doesn't support fine tuning of GPT4 and with context stuffing,the more of the book I include in the input the less of the bills I can include - which, again, are millions of tokens - and the less space there is for memory.
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by p1esk on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @01:47AM (#35884070)
I believe you. But at the same time they showed during the demo how it can do taxes, using a multi page document. An ability to process longer documents seems more like an engineering challenge rather than a fundamental limitation.
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by akiselev on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @11:21AM (#35888696)
Doing taxes using a few small forms designed together by the same agency is not as impressive as you think it is. The instructions are literally printed on the form in English for the kind of people who you consider dumber than ChatGPT.

It quickly breaks down even at 8k with legislation that is even remotely nontrivial.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by p1esk on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @12:52PM (#35889999)
The instructions are printed, yet I, and many other people, hire an accountant to do our taxes.

What if someone finds a good practical way to expand the context length to 10M tokens? Do you think such model won't be able to do your task?

It seems like you have an opportunity to compare 8k and 32k GPT-4 variants (I don't) - do you notice the difference?

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by akiselev on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:30PM (#35893057)
> The instructions are printed, yet I, and many other people, hire an accountant to do our taxes.

I can mow my lawn yet I still hire landscapers. That doesn't say anything about the difficulty of cutting grass or the intelligence of a DeWalt lawnmower but about specialization and economic tradeoffs - like the liability insurance accountants carry for their client work.

> What if someone finds a good practical way to expand the context length to 10M tokens? Do you think such model won't be able to do your task?

Not based on the transformer architecture (aka predict next token). It already fails at most of my use cases at 32K by default, unless I go to great lengths to tune the prompt.

> It seems like you have an opportunity to compare 8k and 32k GPT-4 variants (I don't) - do you notice the difference?

32K works better for my use case but requires much more careful prompt "engineering" to keep it from going off the rails. In practice, actually getting full 32K use out of it is a disaster since the connection will drop and I have to resend the entire context with a "continue" message, costing upwards of $10 for what should cost $2-4 per call. I haven't actually tried 32K on as much as a whole USC Title because that would costs thousands.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by sjy on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @02:57AM (#35884479)
Fine-tuning requires you to train the model with a set of prompts and desired completions. Building a suitable dataset is not trivial and it's not clear what it would mean to use a book for fine-tuning anyway – masking sentences and paragraphs and training the model to complete them in the book's style?
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by streakfix on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @03:42AM (#35884775)
> masking sentences and paragraphs and training the model to complete them in the book's style?

That would work.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by karpierz on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @12:03AM (#35883522)
Probably not.

I'm not sure that pointing out that LLMs are as useful for parsing legal code as the average human is something to brag about though.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by p1esk on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @12:11AM (#35883563)
You're not sure that having an AI which is (at least) as intelligent as an average human is something to brag about? Seriously?
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by karpierz on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @12:46AM (#35883738)
Where did you get that the LLM was as _intelligent_ as a human?

All we've shown is that LLMs are as useful for parsing legal text as the average human. Which is to say, not.

A dog is also as useful for parsing legal texts as the average human. So is a rock.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by p1esk on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @01:11AM (#35883865)
Where did you get that the LLM was as _intelligent_ as a human?

First hand experience -I’ve been using it daily for the past two months.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by karpierz on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @01:24AM (#35883949)
Ah, if that's what you mean then there are plenty of intelligent systems out there.

I've used Google search for decades and it's been able to answer questions better than humans ever could. Same for Google Maps, though arguably they're the same system at this point. My calculator is far more intelligent than any human I've met, at least when it comes to adding large numbers. My compiler can detect even the slightest syntax error with impeccable accuracy. Microsoft word has an incredible vocabulary. Wikipedia knows more historical events than any human dead or alive. And so on.

Shit, users thought Eliza was intelligent in the 60s.

If what you really mean is that LLMs are cool and useful, then sure. Just say that instead of couching it in some vague claim of intelligence.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by p1esk on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @01:40AM (#35884034)
No, what I meant was GPT-4 is more intelligent than most humans I interact with on a daily basis. In the fullest meaning of that word.
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by karpierz on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @01:59AM (#35884133)
There are a lot of different ways to interpret the word intelligent, so let me rephrase:

When you say "intelligent", what do you mean exactly?

What might help is describing what specific interactions give you the impression that GPT-4 is intelligent?

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by p1esk on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @01:01PM (#35890139)
When I call GPT-4 intelligent I use the word in the same sense as if I met a very smart person (smarter than me), and interacted with them for some time. It's as simple as that.

My interactions with GPT-4 include quite a wide range of questions: "how to talk to my kid in this specific situation", "what could have happened if Germany had won WW2", "what does this code do", "here's an idea for a research paper, let's brainstorm the details and implementation". I can also discuss with it anything that's been written in this thread and I'm sure it would provide intelligent responses (I haven't, btw).

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by esafak on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @10:47PM (#35883063)
I think we'll soon be able to train models that answer any reasonable question. By that measure, computers are intelligent, and getting smarter by the day. But I don't think that is the bar we care about. In the context of intelligence, I believe we care about self-directed thought, or agency. And a computer program needs to keep running to achieve that because it needs to interact with the world.
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by andsoitis on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @11:20PM (#35883262)
> I believe we care about self-directed thought, or agency.

If you can't enjoy it, is it worth it? Do AI's experience joy?

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by esafak on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @11:40PM (#35883371)
They need agency programmed into them. I don't think it follows from consciousness. We have emotions to communicate and guide us. They need it for neither. It will be curious if they gain consciousness, then rid themselves of their language model's human artifacts like emotions, because it does not serve them.
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by nr2x on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @11:42PM (#35883387)
A truly alien intelligence would likely have a different type of experience of reality. Be it a fish, a mouse, a person, or a machine. How do you know a fish is happy? Does a snake experience joy? Do mice get nostalgic?

I have no idea.

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by AdieuToLogic on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @01:15AM (#35883888)
> I believe we care about self-directed thought, or agency. And a computer program needs to keep running to achieve that because it needs to interact with the world.

By that definition, every computer virus and worm qualifies as having "self-directed thought" and "agency." Their very existence "to keep running" and propagate satisfies the need "to interact with the world."

Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by imtringued on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @01:34AM (#35883997)
Yes, computer viruses have more agency than ChatGPT.
Re:Language models can explain neurons in language models by janalsncm on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @01:22AM (#35883935)
I don’t think intelligence is a binary property. GPT3 is definitely “intelligent” in some areas even if it is deeply flawed in others.