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Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by aetherson on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:35AM (#35852505)
I think Apple should just make USB-C the norm for iPhones.

But the idea that a trans-national government over 750M people should be trying to regulate in this level of detail is just obviously a recipe for disaster. For every one time they successfully push a company to do something correct -- but ultimately trivial, like this thing -- there are going to be 10 cases where some bureaucrat makes a bad decision and they're like fifteen steps removed from any kind of oversight, or where no uniform rule-making makes sense over the vastly diverse areas of the EU. Humanity is just not capable of making a bureaucracy of this size that makes decisions at this level of detail in a on-average-good way.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by hef19898 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:43AM (#35852594)
And now think about all the normed parts you encounter everyday: screws, material, plugs, tools, fuel... All of those stabdards have been enforced at one time. Including adminiszartive commitees, staffed mostly by industry (!), to revise them and keep them updated.

Edit: One can make the case about the roman empire, and some really old civilization in India I am too lazy to look up, building quite impressive empires running on engineering and other stabdards across gigantic portions of thebthen known earth. That neother of those exists anymore is hardly the fault of those norms.

Oh, nor to forget: measurement units.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by NickBusey on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:18PM (#35854071)
Citation needed for the claim that governments enforce standards for screws. Maybe in the stuff they buy, but that’s not the same thing.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by dghlsakjg on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:00PM (#35854467)
Agreed.

One visit to an industrial fastener store will let you know that there is no such thing as a standard screw/bolt. Even metric Mx machine screws (which are the closest thing I can think of to a standard) have 4 different common pitches, and you can have them custom made to ANY pitch.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by hef19898 on Monday May 08, 2023 @02:11AM (#35858632)
And a look in enineering literature and norms, EN for example, woupd tell you thatvall those different screw types, from heads and pitches to strength and surface treatment, are, in fact, stabdardized and normed.

And of course you can get custom parts for everything. Those are, as the name implies, custom and not standard.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by dghlsakjg on Monday May 08, 2023 @04:58PM (#35866983)
The point is that EN standards are set by industry, not government. This is a reply to a comment about supposed government regulations around what a screw is allowed to be.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by hef19898 on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @12:35AM (#35870202)
And they are based, after having replaced a bunch of national predecessors like DIN, on an EU regulation providing the legal basis for them.

Ehich makes Apples bahvior even worse, litterally everybody else managed to agree on common standards, but thay had to insist on proprietary tech to the point they got their set of legislation.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by revelio on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:13PM (#35852938)
Such disasters are here and today, not in the future. This charger business is justified by the EU on the grounds of reducing waste. Noble, except that the EU is simultaneously creating a massive trash mountain on a scale well beyond anything the mobile industry will ever achieve by purchasing hundreds of millions of doses of COVID vaccines (still!), and then immediately tossing them into landfills. It does this because the EU's bureaucratic experts signed secret contracts with Pfizer that requires them to do so.

https://www.aerzteblatt.de/nachrichten/142097/116-Millionen-...

As of the end of February, the federal government had around 116 million doses of corona vaccine in stock. This emerges from a response from the Federal Ministry of Health ( BMG ) to a request from AfD member of the Bundestag Thomas Dietz.

According to this, the delivery of almost 111 million more vials with a value of around 2.5 billion euros is still pending. According to the reply, the federal government is obliged to accept them under the EU treaties.

"In view of the current development of the pandemic, the Federal Government is committed to making these EU contracts more flexible," the letter continues.

But even that that wasn't enough trash! Germany decided that it was also needed to purchase over 3.7 billion masks for their federal inventory. But masks expire, and now they have so many expiring and useless masks nobody wants that they have resorted to mass incineration of them, which they call "thermal reprocessing".

Yet even that wasn't enough trash pointlessly manufactured and then immediately burned for the EU. Even as they literally set fire to mountains of masks they were simultaneously purchasing another ~250 million for a National Reserve, many of which will expire at the end of 2023.

This is the EU that claims to care about the terrible trash problem created by mobile phone chargers.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by baq on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:41PM (#35853193)
It'd be so much better... for Pfizer to sell to consumers individually for 10-100x the price!
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by revelio on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:52PM (#35853299)
The Commission staff who signed these contracts are clearly idiots. Why do you assume they aren't paying 10x what the natural market rate would have been? Pfizer realized the EU would sign literally anything to be able to say it was going to save the day by purchasing vaccines. That's the absolute perfect time to set prices well above what you normally could charge!
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway049 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:05PM (#35853956)
You're welcome to bring numbers rather than hand-waving to this argument.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:19PM (#35854084)
Seems like a problem with Pfizer exploiting its monopoly position to hold public health hostage as much as bureaucrats choosing to have a signed contract with an overly-generous safety margin over getting the best possible price over some unknown timeframe.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by revelio on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:44PM (#35854314)
Pfizer didn't have a monopoly!
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:44PM (#35854918)
They had a combination of pharmaceutical expertise and manufacturing capacity that made it easier for them to play hardball than it was for Moderna or Janssen. Substitute 'market power' for monopoly if you prefer, my point is that they were pursuing their own economic interests while negotiating deals so they share responsibility with the public officials for the outcome.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by DangitBobby on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:22PM (#35853035)
As everyone knows, if you do something dumb and wasteful you must always do dumb and wasteful things or risk being derided as a hypocrite!
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mort96 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:38PM (#35853166)
Yeah! They made this one bad decision so it's hypocritical of them to make this other good decision!
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by blowski on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:40PM (#35853735)
* * *
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by revelio on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:55PM (#35853872)
> Of course the EU can make bad decisions in one area without precluding them making good ones in others.

That's the whole point: they cannot. You guys are missing the problem here. The exact same systems and people who made the bad decisions about masks and vaccines are the ones making the decisions about phone chargers.

You can't say well obviously that decision was bad, but this one is good. Some of us recall that when the EU was writing blank cheques to Pfizer as part of a collective scheme to do purchasing for all of Europe it was being widely hailed as a genius move. So much money saved! So efficient, to do bulk purchasing. Now every single reply to my post admits that the decisions were terrible but this time it'll be different because this time the decision is obviously right.

Give it some years and people will be pointing to the USB-C decision as an example of EU dysfunction and HNs will be replying, "just because that decision was bad doesn't mean this one is!".

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:29PM (#35854156)
First, it's not the exact same systems and people; second, the circumstances are not analogous - a public health health emergency has a different set of considerations from a chronic junk problem; third, you have surely made some bad decisions in life as well as good ones, but you would probably be upset if people around you reacted to everything you did on the basis of your worst failure.

Sure, burning warehouses full of covid masks is absurdly wasteful. But do they really drop to zero effectiveness on their expiration date? Experience says no. If they're not fit to surgical standard, maybe they can be stamped with some identifying mark and redistributed as dust masks or something. The main reason the default option is to burn them is because history suggests that otherwise businesses will buy them and resell them as medical-grade or whatever without fully informing prospective customers.

Do you have a proposal for dealing with commercial mendacity that's less severe than just abolishing all state efforts at procurement or establishment of consumer standards?

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by blowski on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:06PM (#35853965)
> You can't say well obviously that decision was bad, but this one is good.

I absolutely can and will say that.

A football manager can make bad decisions and lose 5-0, and yet the same manager can then win the next game with the same team. Furthermore, in the case of the EU, these are not even the same people, context, or decision.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by xorcist on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:04PM (#35855578)
It specifically not the same people.

It's like when people claim standardized air port codes are made by the same people who sit in the security council, because both are UN bodies. It doesn't make it any more true.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by petesergeant on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:15PM (#35852959)
> this level of detail

The gazillion iPhone users in the EU use this twice a day, in physical space, and honestly that feels ok rather than nit-picking. If they do an EU-only model, I’ll absolutely go out of my way to get one

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by cagenut on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:37PM (#35853162)
this is your brain on (neo)liberalism. neurotically paralyzed by the hypothetical and counterfactual demons in your imagination.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by oasisbob on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:39PM (#35853175)
> But the idea that a trans-national government over 750M people should be trying to regulate in this level of detail is just obviously a recipe for disaster

Why? Standards harmonization has big upsides too.

For example, the EU PPE safety standards are so good that there aren't even North American equivalents for many products.

If you buy a climbing carabiner in the US, it's being tested according to a test procedure defined by the same EU bureaucracy you deride.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by wskinner on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:12PM (#35853483)
If the standards are so good, they shouldn’t need to force companies to use them.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by heliostatic on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:25PM (#35853593)
I believe we have found the economist.

What's the electrical failure rate of every appliance in your home, and the associated risk of death by electrocution? If you don't know offhand, it might be that you are implicitly relying on UL standards to keep you safe and whole.

Consumers don't have perfect information, so the risk is asymmetric. If you assume the market will sort out risk and quality so we don't need standards and enforcement thereof, I don't believe your model is aligned with reality.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by wskinner on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:43PM (#35853766)
Many responses to my comment made the same argument, so I’ll just reply here.

What do you see as the main safety differences between Lightning and USB-C? As both systems have been in use at scale for some time now, this should be easy enough to answer quantitatively.

My understanding is that they offer equivalent safety, in spite of Lightning not having been standardized by the EU, but I may be wrong.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:05PM (#35853958)
You're missing the point. It's not that Lightning is bad, it's probably great (I don't have any iThings to compare). But left to themselves, it's entirely plausible that Apple will just abandon it in a few years in favor of some exciting new technology called Laser or Quantum or Telluric. Sure, people will complain, but they'll upgrade because there are some other great new features on the iPhone 17, plus clinging to old stuff makes people feel poor.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by nickpp on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:27PM (#35854148)
Lighting has been the standard for Apple devices longer than USB-C existed, since 2012. The previous standard, the 30-pin connector was introduced in 2003.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by dghlsakjg on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:05PM (#35854526)
Apple has had fewer connectors than the USB standards.

USB for small devices like phones has gone: Proprietary -> Mini -> Micro -> USB-C

In the same timespan apple has gone: 30-pin -> Lightning

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:46PM (#35854945)
Yes, but USB connectors are spread across an entire universe of devices, Apple connectors are proprietary.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway049 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:02PM (#35853933)
The person you replied to did not imply that there was a difference in safety between lightning and usbc, they just used safety as an example of regulated standards with which to attack your reasoning. The EU is mostly seeking to reduce waste by standardising common parts.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by tapland on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:01PM (#35853926)
Did the EU create the usb-c plug or was this standard enforced only after it already existed and was a de-facto standard for everything non-Apple?
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by wallaBBB on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:59PM (#35853907)
Your response does zero to address (absolutely rightful) negative comments on your original comment, nor is it related to your original comment that sounds like a parody of a Wall Street liberals before they start crying for government bailouts. It's just a poor Red Herring argument that you provided.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by aliceryhl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:20PM (#35853547)
Being good for the consumer is not necessarily the same as being good for the company selling the device.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by sneakerblack on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:27PM (#35853606)
This is not how incentives work. Companies can and have creates inferior and dangerous products for the sake of profits. See the Phoebus cartel and the BMW emission scandal.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by wskinner on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:44PM (#35853778)
And what about the case of Lightning and USB-C? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35853766
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by flangola7 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:34PM (#35853676)
Without government force companies will not act in the interest of the consumer or employees. Seatbelts, airbags, and crash testing are obviously fantastic standards, but require significant and continuous cash expenditure. Few or no auto companies would invest in them without the public mandating it. Indeed, many companies lobbied and vehemently protested it when first implemented.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:58PM (#35853902)
Nonsensical. Many companies cut corners to save a buck. You're assuming companies want to be in markets for the long run under conditions of perfect competition (ie total market transparency). In reality many business owners are more than happy to make a million $ selling a shitty product then move on to some other market under a new name. You have to make quite a lot of money before the advantages of a reliable brand that consumers can readily identify exceed the incentives to make a quick buck.

Proof: look at all the craptastic companies that sell ersatz products on Amazon. For some kinds of products they can be almost as good as much more expensive offerings, for others you might get a great deal or you might get an explosive paperweight.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by oasisbob on Monday May 08, 2023 @10:26AM (#35861846)
American companies voluntarily manufacture products to these standards.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by P_I_Staker on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @10:09AM (#35874556)
Apple is a perfect example of this failing.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by baq on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:39PM (#35853179)
I remember the world before micro USB chargers and it was a disaster only mitigated by regulation. Calling it trivial is missing the forest from the trees. It was a good decision and it's good to finally see an end to this madness after 15 years of 'Who has a Nokia/Samsung/Sony charger?' to 'Who has the USB a/b/c/iPhone?' to hopefully 'who has a charger?' in five years.

Humanity does not have an alternative to bureaucrats because lassez-faire markets optimize for maximum company profits over all time spans instead of consumer convenience.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by 13of40 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:03PM (#35853394)
The fact that my headphones, laptop, telephone, and even my electric shaver all use the same (usb-c) charger now is a complete game changer. I can't imagine what kind of hubris Apple has to not snap to that.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by TylerE on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:50PM (#35853836)
Micro usb is close to being the worst of all worlds.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:14PM (#35854032)
Why? It's small, reasonably robust, easy to connect. The first time I got a USB-C device I was shocked at how elegant and well-engineered the connection felt. As consumer devices go, it's great.

For context, I was a pro sound engineer in the film industry for many years, so I have lots of experience with industrial grade connectors and operating in hostile environmental conditions from heavy rain/marine environments to desert dust storms. There are times when I go straight to industrial/military manufacturing specifications, but USB-C is still great.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by TylerE on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:43PM (#35854301)
Micro usb not C. The directional connector that gets crushed if you look at it funny.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:45PM (#35854927)
My mistake, sorry for the confusion.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by MagicMoonlight on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:41PM (#35853199)
>They're saying we can't put sawdust in bread, if they're that interested in a small product like that then what's to stop them banning lead in toys?
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by aetherson on Monday May 08, 2023 @10:43AM (#35862057)
If only there were some kind of distinction we could draw between health and toxicity regulation versus "which charger for your phone is better." I just can't think of what it could be.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:51PM (#35853839)
or every one time they successfully push a company to do something correct -- but ultimately trivial, like this thing -- there are going to be 10 cases where some bureaucrat makes a bad decision

This is a truism, but does it have any basis in reality? Certainly, if every manufacturer were forced to use USB-C for everything it could lead to an innovation problem, but I don't think makers of new products are forbidden from offering innovative kinds of connectivity, which the market might or might not decide to adopt. Nor is the issue trivial just because it's physically small, any more than the design of electrical wall sockets is of low importance.

They're making Apple do it because they have huge market share, a long history of foisting different physical connectors on their customers and generating a significant amount of electronic waste as older models are abandoned. Crucially, the charging devices end up being unwanted because they don't work with anything else including other iphones. Sure, they could enjoy a longer life with the use of adapters, but physical adapters are Not Great.

It's a pity, because Apple does innovate and some of their innovations are very cool, eg the magnetized charging ports on Macbooks was an Apple first iirc. But they also have a reputation for stiffing their own customers by ignoring backward compatibility , assuming that most of their customers will grumble but keep paying for the new model because they like the ecosystem.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by aetherson on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:34PM (#35857491)
Have you ever, like, actually interacted with a bureaucracy? I don't mean a governmental one, necessarily. An even mid-sized company's HR department, let's say. I was just trying to get a medical evaluation for my son: I called them and they spent 10 minutes on the phone with me explaining that they were going to send me four emails before they had a 30 minute call with me before they were going to do the actual evaluation of my son. They told me that I could fill out the two surveys in the four emails that they sent me via, and I quote exactly, "A desktop or a laptop or an iPad, but not an iPhone: this is for security reasons."

It's hilarious that your big question is: "Does the idea that bureaucracies routinely make money-and-time-wasting decisions have any basis in reality." You should investigate this reality at some point.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Monday May 08, 2023 @02:31AM (#35858746)
Of course. Some of them are awful and some of them are fine. You might as well reason that 'Apple is a corporation; corporations are essentially large bureaucracies; therefore anything produced by Apple will embody all the flaws of bureaucracy.' And indeed many people make arguments like this here on HN daily, arguing that large companies can't innovate because they're simply not agile enough.

It's not that bureaucracies can't be terrible, they absolutely can. But it's overly simplistic to argue that they're constitutionally terrible by virtue of merely existing.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by aetherson on Monday May 08, 2023 @07:51AM (#35860548)
Apple is a bureaucracy and I'm sure they make lots of bad decisions. But they're a much smaller bureaucracy then the EU, operating on a much smaller range of decisions.

What I actually said was that a very large bureaucracy operating over a gigantic domain and trying to make rules at very fine levels of detail across that domain would make bad decisions. Like, say, "we're regulating the entire economic system of half a billion people in very diverse economic circumstances down to the level of exactly what heads should be in what phone chargers."

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by iso8859-1 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:55PM (#35853877)
> 750M people

Where are you getting this figure? It's below 450M AFAIK.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by bj-rn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:54PM (#35855980)
The population of Europe (continent/region) is ~750M. The EU (political/economic entity) has ~450M.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by aetherson on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:30PM (#35857459)
Sorry, just did a quick Google and didn't look past the headline figure. I don't think that it substantially changes the point, but I regret the error.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by nborwankar on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:21PM (#35854093)
It’s not really about the hardware interface. It’s about a single standard for charging infrastructure so that economies of scale and zero barrier to entry makes charging tech a commodity as it should be, not a product with premium pricing enforced by a proprietary interface. The market dynamics are the real target. The interface is being targeted because it’s the tool used to distort pricing and create a pseudo-premium product. Anker now makes far superior chargers for Apple products, cheaper and with more features than the original. But they are forced to pay Apple licensing fees for their proprietary but not really superior interface.