News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by chii on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @01:10AM (#35783599)
I think you got it the wrong way around - cities _form_ around opportunities, rather than produce them.

Initially, geographic advantage (such as being near harbour, river, or some other geographic feature) gives a settlement that's not yet a city a big advantage in attracting more people there. This in turn, forces the city to grow as more people cram in.

To artificially build denser by policy doesn't produce opportunities - those opportunities would have to be there first! And it's this "expensiveness" of creating more accomodation in the city that causes the city to expand.

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by vasco on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @01:28AM (#35783718)
Two are not mutually exclusive. A city can be formed around the "opportunity" of a river or whatever a thousand years ago, and yet provide new opportunities like tinder having loads of people nearby nowadays.
Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by tap-snap-or-nap on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @03:40AM (#35784517)
Similarly, cities decline after loss of opportunities and opportunities decline after cities make losses.
Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by csomar on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @05:11AM (#35785039)
The people themselves rarely create the opportunity. Take the Bay Area/SF for example, the opportunity is the digital economy and not the people who are mining it. That is, you can have a bunch of software developers (or miners), but if there is no gold to mine, they'll just sit idle (and eventually disperse).

Most cities around the world (except some cities in the US) are "strategically" located near a river or on shore. Because of that, pretty much the whole world live near a river or sea. The most strategically located cities "become" a trading hub and these days have become large cities.

It's well worth mentioning, however, that if the people in the city (who where strategically located for trading) didn't adapt to the changes in the world conditions, then these cities simply disappear or become much less relevant. Many cities of the world would have lost this privilege due to digitalization and the sea becoming safer.

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by spacebanana7 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:18AM (#35786962)
> The people themselves rarely create the opportunity.

It's impossible to separate the people from the social institutions which do create the opportunity in the services sector which dominates modern advanced economies.

In the Bay Area/SF the digital economy is defined by the ecosystem of big tech, VCs, thousands of software engineers and maybe tens of thousands of support services like accountants.

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by achenet on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:54AM (#35787420)
> That is, you can have a bunch of software developers (or miners), but if there is no gold to mine, they'll just sit idle (and eventually disperse).

not sure this is a good example - while it's true for actual gold mining, in the case of software developers, having other software devs around (plus also good computers, which you could argue is like gold) can be an opportunity in itself - look at all the devtools startups that happen in the Bay Area.

A large group of people is an opportunity in itself.

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by rippercushions on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @02:05AM (#35783925)
There are lots of planned cities that are natural experiments in this: Brasilia, Canberra, Ottawa, Abuja etc. They all show that yes, it is possible to "build it and they will come", but it's hugely expensive, takes a long, long time (decades) to get to critical mass, and produced mixed results at best, eg Brasilia's original strictly separated zoning has been widely panned as a disaster. And I'm pretty sure all of those would still suffer gravely if the capital was ever moved out.
Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by nirimda on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @03:46AM (#35784535)
> There are lots of planned cities that are natural experiments in this... They ... produced mixed results at best, eg Brasilia's original strictly separated zoning has been widely panned as a disaster.

I'm not sure if there's been some slight shift of topic here. By "planned", I think we originally meant "deliberately built in relatively undeveloped land". But then you mention as an example of a failure of deliberately building a city in relatively undeveloped land, an example of a failure of micromanagement (also a kind of planning, but one that is completely orthogonal to the circumstances of the city's founding).

So does Brasilia's original strictly separated zoning show the problems of strictly separated zoning, or does it show the problems of deliberately building a city where none was before? It's possible we just had the wrong idea of what you need to have a great city during the 20th century isn't it? Washington DC, for instance, is an artificial city with top-down planning, but it was built at a time when people had different ideas about what made a great city, and it doesn't really seem to be a failure. It doesn't even appear on your list, despite being the case that served as a template for your other examples.

(I don't know. I don't know anything about Brasilia other than that it is the capital of Brazil.)

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by midoridensha on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @05:22AM (#35785099)
>Washington DC, for instance, is an artificial city with top-down planning, but it was built at a time when people had different ideas about what made a great city, and it doesn't really seem to be a failure.

As I recall, DC was designed by George Washington himself (probably with help from his friends), back in the late 1700s, but the city as a whole was not: what they designed was the Federal district only. The Capitol, the White House, the National Mall between them, etc. Over time, this grew with the additions of the Smithsonian buildings and many other things.

The thing is, no one lives there. That district is entirely devoid of residential areas in fact, and with very little commercial stuff if any. All that stuff is mostly to the north, and I don't see any evidence of it being planned top-down at all, except maybe the original street layout which is largely a simple grid, with lettered streets running east-west, and a few interesting things like Dupont Circle (which probably came later).

DC is definitely not a place I'd call a "master planned city" or "artificial city"; it's evolved far too much in the last 300+ years.

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by AeiumNE on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:48AM (#35787342)
What is your source here?

I am from DC and it's pretty well known that it is a planned city. Look up the L'Enfant Plan.

I'm not really sure what you are talking about.

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by midoridensha on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @10:52PM (#35797208)
Go look at the map of the L'Enfant Plan. Now compare it to a map of modern-day DC. They aren't the same: the modern city is much larger. The original plan just covers the federal district, street layouts, etc. Georgetown is just a name on the side of the plan, for instance, with no actual plan. The original plan certainly doesn't include the subway system, or Union station and all the train lines, or many many other things.
Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by piva00 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @05:39AM (#35785197)
Brasilia was designed exactly to not be what it became. The original plan from Lucio Costa introduced the concept of "superblocks" which would be more-or-less self-sufficient, having shops, residential apartments, schools, parks and so on every few superblocks.

The military dictatorship decide to introduce strict zoning (probably lifting ideas that were happening in the USA during the 60s), completely destroying the urbanistic approach of the original design.

It's a failure of micromanagement from authoritarianism, inspired by the misguided (and nowadays considered idiotic) approach to urban design of the USA in the 50s onward.

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by piva00 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @03:51AM (#35784562)
Brasilia was not originally planned to have separate zoning, Lucio Costas's vision (Lucio Costa was one of the architects together with Niemeyer to design the city) was one of "superblocks", a block was supposed to be close to self-sufficiency (hence the enormous block sizes), each was to have housing, shops, schools and so on in the block or in neighbouring blocks. The military dictatorship of Brazil decided to revamp the plan and deploy stricter zoning, separating shops from residential areas which made the city a urban hell of traffic and commute.

Brasilia is also what I would call "not a city", it has a pretty large population which doesn't live in it like in a city. There's very few vibrant public places there, from an urbanist perspective it's a complete disaster.

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by midoridensha on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @05:15AM (#35785063)
Sounds just like a typical US city.
Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by rippercushions on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @05:23AM (#35785102)
TIL, thanks for sharing!
Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by lozenge on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @05:46AM (#35785243)
Grand city plans usually fail even with the best intentions. Eg Milton Keynes was meant to be a walking, bike and car friendly town - it achieved one of those.
Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by noduerme on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @04:40AM (#35784843)
>> if the capital was ever moved out

I initially read this as meaning "if the money was ever moved out", and then laughed ... yes, if they ever stopped being the capital ...

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by midoridensha on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @10:48PM (#35797165)
"Capital" is a weird word in English. It can mean money as you refer to, but it can also refer to the city where a country's seat of government lies. Then there's "capitol" (with an 'o'), which refers to a building in the capital city where the legislative body meets.
Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by allturtles on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @11:31AM (#35803604)
There's also upper-case letters, the big letter at the head of a passage, and adjective forms: capital punishment, a capital idea (archaic). This article has a nice discussion of the etymology of capital: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/financial-word... Usages that started out as living metaphors become 'fossilized' over time as independent meanings.

Don't languages in general have single words with multiple meanings? Is this a special feature of English?

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by midoridensha on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @09:07PM (#35810013)
>Don't languages in general have single words with multiple meanings? Is this a special feature of English?

That's not what I'm referring to; it's the confusion over "capital" vs "capitol" (in addition to the double meaning of capital city vs capital-money).

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by em-bee on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @06:00AM (#35785333)
it really depends on the kind of opportunities you are looking for. if i want to form a band or play in a music session then i need to find other players. a larger city is more likely to have players, so the opportunity does not exist until the people are there. same goes for creating a hackerspace or any other group around a topic that is only of interest to a small part of the population.
Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by spacebanana7 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:08AM (#35786835)
> To artificially build denser by policy doesn't produce opportunities - those opportunities would have to be there first!

Density is an effective way of substituting for transport speed, which is the binding constraint on many opportunities.

The number of coffee shops I can choose to visit on my 15 minute break after stand up is limited by the density of the urban environment, for a given mode of transport.

Many public, private and social enterprises have this dynamic. A police station needs to be within a certain travel distance of the outskirts of their community to be useful, likewise a supermarket or nightclub.

There is an argument that, at a certain extreme point, density might have such a negative impact on transport speed that it might increase transit time. I'm personally split on this issue. Density definitely hurts motor vehicle speed but has little effect on walking speed and might even improve rail speed.

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by raybb on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:25AM (#35787082)
> Many public, private and social enterprises have this dynamic.

What is the dynamic in "this dynamic" ? Do you have an examples with social enterprises?

Re:Change My Mind: Density Increases Local but Decreases Glo... by spacebanana7 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:34AM (#35787187)
> What is the dynamic in "this dynamic"

I intended the phrase "this dynamic" to capture the relationship between transport time and viability of the enterprise.

> Do you have an examples with social enterprises?

Sure thing. Food banks, soup kitchens and homeless shelters all need to be within a viable transport time of the people they intend to help.