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Re:An End to Pop by nluken on Sunday April 30, 2023 @02:54PM (#35765481)
Genuinely confused how people think AI will "democratize" music by allowing people to "create without a gatekeeper". What exactly does this mean? Music has already been democratized. You don't need a label to release music and build a following anymore. Mainstream acts like Radiohead and Chance the Rapper have proven this over and over again.

The catch here is that you need to do something new and original to attract a following that way. Training a computer to generate a Drake song (or imitate McCartney's voice) doesn't empower new artists like AI evangelists think it does. If UMG can pay someone else to copy Drake's flow and release a new Drake track for 1/10 the cost, that isn't "democratizing" artistry, it's extricating the artist from the art altogether. If you do want the support of a label for your own work, you need to meet the right people. AI-generated music doesn't change that.

The only "gates" these people want to get by are ones put up by practicing music enough to make something novel. AI might be useful as a tool to assist actual musicians in their processes, but in my experience the musicians that create interesting music do so because they have a strong vision, not because they're exceptionally technically proficient.

Re:An End to Pop by steppi on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:17PM (#35765716)
A Radiohead album is an incredibly sophisticated feat of audio engineering requiring a team of people beyond the band itself to make. The production costs are substantial. It takes more than just practicing enough to make something like that. If AI gets to the point where I can record something in my bedroom with similar production values, I’d count that as democratization.
Re:An End to Pop by mjr00 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:26PM (#35765808)
You don't need AI for this, you can do it now. Any analog music production gear in existence has a software emulation that's 99.99% accurate and available for a few hundred bucks at most (and of course can be easily acquired for free, as with all software). High quality audio interfaces are available for cheap. Most expensive thing would be renting out a studio to record vocals with a good mic, and even that is arguably unnecessary. Plenty of in-the-box musicians and producers are making top quality songs with not much more than their Macbook.
Re:An End to Pop by steppi on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:40PM (#35765932)
I’ve recorded at home with a similar setup. Getting things to sound just right takes a lot of effort and tinkering though which I just don’t have time for due to the demands of work and family. I might have a couple hours per week to devote to music. If I could go from writing a song to making a professional sounding recording in a couple hours, that would be amazing. This isn’t a hypothetical either. I’m an ML researcher and plan to experiment with stuff like this when I have time. Making it stupid easy to produce professional sounding recordings would absolutely be democratizing in my opinion.
Re:An End to Pop by mjr00 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @04:15PM (#35766213)
Already lots of magic tooling for exactly this, some of which (allegedly) uses AI. Look into Gullfoss for AI assistance with mixing and iZotope Ozone which has an "AI mastering assistant." And there's even more basic "one knob sound good" plugins of varying effectiveness, like OTT, Sausage Fattener and Soundgoodizer.
Re:An End to Pop by steppi on Sunday April 30, 2023 @04:19PM (#35766247)
Thanks for the recommendations. All of my music equipment is in storage now, but I hope to set up a small studio later this year. Will definitely check this stuff out.
Re:An End to Pop by raydev on Sunday April 30, 2023 @06:45PM (#35767252)
The gear has indeed gotten cheaper, but you need to

- record one or more sounds

- have extensive knowledge about filters, mixing, mastering

Without the latter, even if you're amazing musician/singer and you have decent gear and a nice interace and good ideas, you still need to sit down and mix the thing so that it sounds good in the car/airpods/phone/laptop.

> Plenty of in-the-box musicians and producers are making top quality songs with not much more than their Macbook.

I'll bet you money that if one of their songs has repeat status in your music player, that song is likely not the first song they've ever recorded.

They had to build mechanical skills first. AI-generated music skips that.

Re:An End to Pop by EyeSayUntoThee on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:14PM (#35782436)
Raydev appears to have no interest in learning anything about the music production process nor putting in any work. I suggest that they are using "expensive gear" as a proxy for "effort, work, sweat, time"

mechanical skills are EARNED, and are a lot of fun to exercise when functioning.

*before anyone suggests "ableism" I refer you to Django Reinhardt, the drummer from Def Leppard, and anyone who has overcome physical disabilities to express themselves upon the musical instrument of their choice.

Re:An End to Pop by dmbche on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:21PM (#35765764)
What do you think the AI could do that you couldn't by searching the web?

And is the difference between the hypothetical bedroom-produced version of the same Radiohead album and the actual album actually that noticeable?

I work in film/video, and you definitely can produce something that would have cost millions of dollars 10 years ago by yourself, with minimal costs. I struggle to compare the scale of engineering needed to make albums versus movies.

Re:An End to Pop by Swizec on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:26PM (#35765802)
> What do you think the AI could do that you couldn't by searching the web?

Create enough hours in the day to do the work.

No amount of skill or knowledge will get me over the hump that it takes hundreds, maybe thousands, of person hours to produce a Radiohead album.

Re:An End to Pop by dmbche on Sunday April 30, 2023 @04:06PM (#35766144)
I'm sorry - hours of doing what exactly?

Ok computer took two months of mixing, and some time for the mastering. 80% of the rest were live takes. What's the AI supposed to do?

Re:An End to Pop by Swizec on Sunday April 30, 2023 @04:24PM (#35766283)
The 2 months of mixing
Re:An End to Pop by dmbche on Sunday April 30, 2023 @04:48PM (#35766476)
I don't know what to tell you brother, two months of mixing is very doable for humans beings... As it was done by two people to make OK Computer? I don't think having an AI will change much for your music production if 2 months of mixing is too much work. Don't even know what you'd ask it to do - you'd probably have to readjust it until it's the way you want it...it would probably take the same time don't you think?
Re:An End to Pop by Swizec on Sunday April 30, 2023 @04:55PM (#35766541)
So we’re talking about democratizing production yeah?

Imagine I’m a schmuck who can croon into a microphone. It’s just me. I have a dayjob because this is a hobby.

“Just a quick 2 months of work” is a total nonstarter. I’ll just keep crooning in the shower

“Just 2 months, it’s not a lot” is like telling someone “Oh cleaning the house is easy, just ask your maid”

Re:An End to Pop by dmbche on Sunday April 30, 2023 @05:04PM (#35766614)
Well we're talking about making a record like OK Computer. It's a work of art, it takes time and intent and attention to details.

If you want to record a couple jazz songs for kicks you can very easily and satisfactorily do this today, for very little money (just higher up this thread people have recommended great tools) and it will be higher quality that what was playing on the radio in the 90s. And I'd argue that if you were as good a crooner as Radiohead are -eh- experimental musicians, I'm sure you'd find the time to make an album that would make yourself rich.

Sorry I'm a little ranty - gonna get a drink I guess

You don't need two months of mixing for your crooner album. You can mix it yourself on the weekend and be 80% there.

Like the guy that did Tubular Bells keep re-recording it because it's not good enough for him - but I'm fine with the version he first produced. AI isn't going to change anything here.

Re:An End to Pop by steppi on Sunday April 30, 2023 @05:39PM (#35766848)
I get it, but I see so many possibilities here. Fitter Happier and Climbing up the Walls have string arrangements performed by an orchestra. Can you imagine writing a score and spinning up a virtual orchestra to play it? There are so many subtleties in phrasing, dynamics, and intonation that make the difference between just Ok and excellent. It doesn’t seem impossible to imagine giving your score to your virtual musicians and communicating with them in natural language and hummed phrases in an iterative process until they get things just right. You’d have to agree this would be democratizing, right?
Re:An End to Pop by dmbche on Sunday April 30, 2023 @05:48PM (#35766914)
I guess it is. Kind of like being able to talk to an AI and have it make a movie out of it. Thanks for the chat!
Re:An End to Pop by skinnymuch on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:11AM (#35770558)
A lot of time and attention can still be spent with 2 months if AI can do a lot of it.

OKC is one of the best Albums of all time imo. But it’s also one of the most popular ones in my own list. So not like all the other works of art for music I come across requiring such intense amt of human labor put in. The capital wouldn’t be there. Capital means capitalism. Which isn’t democratic.

Re:An End to Pop by dmbche on Sunday April 30, 2023 @04:17PM (#35766232)
Reading on the recording of OK Computer, "about 80%" of it was live, no audio separation, it took two months to mix, I can't find the time it took to master. I don't know where the thousands of man-hours were spent?
Re:An End to Pop by zamnos on Monday May 01, 2023 @12:22AM (#35769063)
OK Computer ended up with 12 songs, although OK Computer OKNOTOK 1997 2017, the 2017 reissue of OK Computer included 3 extra previously unreleased tracks (plus a bunch more extras). If we assume those 3 tracks were mixed and mastered for OK Computer's original release, but just didn't make the cut for whatever reason, we have 15 tracks.

Thousands of man-hours is the five members of the band, plus their producer, plus an audio-engineer working 40 hrs/wk.

There are 43 business days in 2 months, or just under 3 days per track. 3 days to do a bunch of technical work to balance the recordings juuust right, and then balance those recordings between each other to make it worthy of being called a Radiohead album. Personally, 3 days per track actually doesn't sound like enough time for that since you mix it, and then have to listen to that particular mix until you get bored, and then come back to it after, listen to it again some more, figure out how you feel about that mix, and then repeat.

Of course, you can half-ass it and throw the tracks into Ableton, spend 20 minutes and call it a day, but you didn't used to get to be Radiohead with that kind of effort. ML algos on the horizon seem like they'll be able to do just that.

Re:An End to Pop by pfannkuchen on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:30AM (#35770670)
If production gets easier, I’m guessing the competitive bar will raise to a point where you still can’t do this with little effort. There may be an adjustment period where you can, but I think it will be temporary. An arms race will kick off with the new tools.
Re:An End to Pop by EyeSayUntoThee on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:11PM (#35782411)
"democratization"!? It wouldn't be YOU or another PERSON gaining these capacities, in such a scenario, it would be the tool, and you would be the toolmakers customer.

ATM, LLM's of reasonable sophistication for such tasks are not running on your laptop, and at the point they do, something else will be getting all the limelight, and it won't be within your reach.

As a lifelong musician and composer and producer, it's just automating things away that I don't want automated away. Producing music is about making decisions.

You act as if Radiohead just inserted money and out came pro music, but really you appear to be wishing to skip any hard work and appear to be asking for instant gratification. Well, I can tell you, as someone who could readily train AI in music, that you only cheat yourself by cutting corners. Knowledge is power to do what you actually really deeply want to. Handing off the minute decisions that add up to making a masterpiece = cheating oneself of being a creator.

Re:An End to Pop by KRAKRISMOTT on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:42AM (#35839427)
Somebody's about to become like illustrators and copywriters — mostly irrelevant unless you are the very best at what you do.
Re:An End to Pop by thefz on Sunday April 30, 2023 @04:04PM (#35766122)
My generation at the dawn of the public internet has contributed to it pouring in a constellation of mini local cultures and experiences, "scenes". Into forums and boards. Hell, even in deviantart and myspace, blogs and newsletters. The current generation's culture is instead what they obtain from the internet itself. Make a word viral and everybody will repeat it, worldwide. "content". What will the AI generation do, rehash this "content"? Value is lost forever, everything is now the same everybody stops there.
Re:An End to Pop by syntheweave on Sunday April 30, 2023 @05:01PM (#35766592)
I think there are roughly three eras of the commercial Internet's culture now, and we're entering the fourth:

Through ~2001: Pre-broadband - early web, dot-coms. Everyone got email. If they were more adventurous, they made a home page, got on IRC or Usenet. This era inherited the "US college student with campus internet access" dynamic that dominated the earliest years of the Internet. "The Internet is for porn" etc. There's a lot of overlap between this era and the next one because broadband added so many capabilities that it was like two sibling versions of internet, akin to 8-bit vs 16-bit personal computing.

2001-2008: Web forums, instant messengers, early Web 2.0. A much broader set of people came online and were courted by the new platforms. This was both a broadening and an erasure of any prior history or culture - the "toxic gamer" archetype, the start of influencer trends in various categories(photos, fitness, tech products...), etc. But commerce and community was broadly mediated through "your own web site" rather than platforms.

2008-2020: Post-iPhone smartphones, dominance of centralized internet platforms and algorithmic news feeds. Now the Internet's culture really was accessed by "everyone" and this became clear by around 2012 as more and more social media-driven movements swept through the world. Status-seeking behavior online became very conspicuous, with a ton of activity, styles of messaging, etc molded to juice algorithmic KPIs.

2020 marks the line where we went to full Internet dependence. And... it's also roughly when ordinary people started expressing more agency over how their news feeds should work, and when the really rapid generative AI breakthroughs started. So all at once the blind status seeking of the smartphone era is breaking down, and the new challenges involve finding appropriate sources of truth and filters in an ocean of spam content.

Re:An End to Pop by ChatGTP on Monday May 01, 2023 @07:01AM (#35771173)
The catch here is that you need to do something new and original to attract a following that way.

Before generative AI, you would've had people copying your style, but that took effort and there was ethics involved, many artists wouldn't like to outright copy someone because it's lame (it is).

Now though, there is zero cost to copying someones style and it can be done in a more faceless way.

I don't think there is much inventive anymore to make something original and post it online. Maybe just play live only?