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Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by lumb63 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:50PM (#35756489)
+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle.

Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long time to come. The heat pump is being oversold as the answer to everything, but there are use cases it doesn’t account for.

The path forward to carbon neutrality is electrification. Electrify new construction, use steam to heat them, etc. Something which addresses heat will dwarf any of the benefits from coming after people’s stovetops, at a fraction of the lifestyle cost.

It almost feels like this is something designed to turn heads; a political act focused on banning something quite popular, that everyone knows about, for very marginal benefit. It’s almost certainly not to help with “climate change”; if it were, the legislation would target non-negligible emissions sources.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by gwbas1c on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:42PM (#35756956)
> Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold

I live in MA and heat my whole house with a heat pump. It works fine. I have an electric strip for backup.

My house (and heat pump) are five years old. The newer ones are better; Lennox's new model can work in Upstate New York without a backup heat source: https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-breakthrough-r...

(I will admit that I have a gas stove in my basement to handle power outages, a gas stove, and a gas grill. I will also admit that I really, really regret installing a gas stove and will switch to an induction stove when it's time to replace the stove.)

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by catiopatio on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:21PM (#35757320)
> I really, really regret installing a gas stove

Why?

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by gwbas1c on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:45PM (#35757547)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35756895

We HAVE to run the fan when we turn on the stove or oven. That's not the case with electric / induction.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by catiopatio on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:59PM (#35757669)
Of everything you’re aerosolizing while cooking, the combustion byproducts are almost certainly the least impactful.

Given your concerns, I wouldn’t cook using electric/induction without the fan on either.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by jablongo on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:55PM (#35756537)
> Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold.

Not true, heat pumps are widely used as primary heat sources in environments as cold or colder than NY, like in Montreal and other parts of Canada. The take that heat pump tech only works in very moderate temperatures is stale at this point.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by bradlys on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:28PM (#35756840)
No no - that can't be true! I saw an advertisement by the gas lobby saying you're wrong! Gas is the only way! People in Scandinavian countries are all dead, don't you know!?
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by amalcon on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:34PM (#35757439)
Usually that works one of two ways:

1. Ground source heat pump -- which can work pretty much anywhere people live, but costs a lot more and people don't necessarily know about them.

2. Failover to resistive heating when it gets too cold outside. It's fine to do this in Montreal, because electricity is relatively inexpensive there. It's fine to do this in New York City, or even somewhere a little cooler like Boston, because you're doing it for max like 2 days a year even in an outlier year. Not sure if it's fine to do this in Buffalo.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:16PM (#35758225)
3. an actual modern air-source heat pump, that still has a COP of close to 2.0 at 5F (as listed here: https://ashp.neep.org/#!/
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by indymike on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:04PM (#35757707)
> Not true, heat pumps are widely used as primary heat sources in environments as cold or colder than NY, like in Montreal and other parts of Canada.

As the owner of a 5 year old heat pump in a milder climate in Indiana, I can tell you this:

* When it is under 10°F, my heat pump switches to emergency heat... forced air electric and is very expensive to run. * Often the temperature swings are pretty wild... 40-50 degrees and that also can force emergency heat.

Oh, and since the electric company is usually using gas to generate the electricity, isn't the environmental impact somewhat of a wash?

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by justeleblanc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:36PM (#35757937)
You bought a shitty heat pump and decided you were okay with living in a state that produces electricity using fossil fuels. What's your point again?
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by nullc on Sunday April 30, 2023 @05:19AM (#35760940)
What state doesn't produce electricity using fossil fuels? At midnight last night, which wasn't atypical, California was 50% natural gas and the total CO2 emitting is even greater due to imports and CO2 emitting renewables.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by jablongo on Sunday April 30, 2023 @11:15AM (#35763308)
Vermont is mostly green via hydroelectric and wind
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by brahbrah on Sunday April 30, 2023 @12:35PM (#35764177)
Vermont also consumes ~3x more energy (all energy, not just electricity) than it produces and has the lowest energy consumption of any state.

https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=VT

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by switch007 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @08:15AM (#35761862)
I've noticed often the response to criticism is "you should have spent $10k more". And the people who spent the extra who enquire about excessive costs then get met with "why did you over-spec your system?" lol
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by indymike on Sunday April 30, 2023 @06:51PM (#35767291)
I bought the best product available at the time. Since Iceland is the only nation on earth that has successfully kicked the fossil fuel habit (11% of energy is produced by burning fossil fuels), I suppose you are suggesting I move there to blunt my aching conscience. I'm sure Iceland is nice, but I think I'd squander any environmental benefit flying to see my friends, relatives and immediate family.

Interesting reading: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-least-dependen...

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by SoftTalker on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:08PM (#35757739)
Yep if you live in Indiana your electricity comes from gas or coal, there's a tiny bit of generation from a wind farm in the northwest corner of the state and some scattered token solar farms.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:12PM (#35758201)
You do not have a Mitsubishi hyper-heat unit, then.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by kllrnohj on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:31AM (#35762373)
When your heat pump is using emergency heat yes it'd be "better" to burn natural gas to do so directly that to burn gas to make electricity to do resistive heating.

However you need to look more at the average scenario to draw a complete picture. When your heat pump isn't in emergency heating then it's more efficient to burn the gas for electricity to power that heat pump than it is to burn the gas for heat (moving heat is substantially cheaper than making heat). So how often is your heat pump in regular heating vs. emergency heat? And then is it in emergency heating often enough to justify having a secondary piece of infrastructure to get gas to your house where you then also need a gas furnace which is more expensive than some resistive heat strips are?

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by indymike on Sunday April 30, 2023 @06:41PM (#35767229)
I'd love to have gas forced-air as the emergency heat on my heat pump. Best of all worlds.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by Tiktaalik on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:15PM (#35765695)
> Oh, and since the electric company is usually using gas to generate the electricity, isn't the environmental impact somewhat of a wash?

This is something that can be improved.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by LazyMans on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:58PM (#35756570)
It is not too cold in New York for heat pumps. With 20 year old technology yes, it would have required supplemental heat. Not anymore though, not until you get down around -25/-30f, at that point a resistive heater kicks in to assist.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by lumb63 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:04PM (#35756619)
Perhaps I worded my comment incorrectly. Yes, heat pumps can work in New York. But, a backup heat system in that climate would be prudent.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by bitexploder on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:42PM (#35756962)
We live in Denver and saw -10, -15 this winter. Our heat pump is 100% efficient down to -10, and still reasonably efficient at -25. Our whole house is on it. No gas.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by LazyMans on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:09PM (#35756661)
Auxiliary heat is built into a heat pump due to the need for a defrost cycle. The auxiliary is the backup.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by timssopomo on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:33PM (#35759233)
I live in upstate NY - plenty of people rely on heat pumps as a primary source. You need backup systems for natural gas and oil in this climate too, for what it's worth. They won't run when the power goes out.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by catiopatio on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:20PM (#35757311)
What happens, exactly, when everyone’s resistive heater kicks in, the grid is overloaded, and we wind up with rolling blackouts in -30 weather?
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by blkhawk on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:35PM (#35757450)
The same as when all the gas burners kick in at the same time - everything turns mauve and explodes.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by blkhawk on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:05PM (#35757716)
Its really hard not to be maximally sarcastic when faced with this type of "what if"...

I mean cities do not work because "what if everybody decides to leave at the same time -and I mean everybody".

"What if its really hot and everybody turns on their aircon at the same time"

Gas heating is inefficient when compared to heat pumps and gas stoves are extremely inefficient when compared to say an induction stove. It simply will not make sense to install them very soon. A heat-pump is really just an air-conditioner with very few extra bits stuck on so houses might have everything in place already. And the grid isn't collapsing because of that.

As for the ban - there might be market forces at play that would make gas real cheap for a time - this would lead to an inclusion in practically all new buildings. But it fairly certain that after that gas will get expensive and supplying it at the individual building level might get less reliable. This will cause a liability because the state will probably be called to fiance the mitigation of that.

Actually I think this will happen regardless. So the ban is simply a way to prevent it getting more costly than it already will be.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by TulliusCicero on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:58PM (#35756573)
> And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle.

Induction is fantastic and even superior to gas in some ways (even faster for boiling water, for example). While some may still prefer gas, given that induction gives instant power and is more powerful, I have a hard time believing that it results in a "large cost to lifestyle".

Besides, gas stoves actually cause a significant amount of indoor air pollution, which may be more relevant than the climate change impact. They are quite literally bad for you: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/have-a-gas-stove-how-to-...

> Children living in households that use gas stoves for cooking are 42% more likely to have asthma

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by timr on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:17PM (#35756736)
Those indoor air pollution studies are extremely questionable. They fail to control for even the most basic confounders (e.g. indoor air filtration, which has improved over time; most of the studies in the asthma paper were old, and the authors noted that the effect size was much higher before 2000). In general, the asthma finding was trash -- a meta-study based on low-quality, observational data which didn't even bother to take into account the quality of the underlying work -- and shouldn't have been published anywhere.

At this point, you should just assume that anything you see with the words "observational research" is wrong. it used to be a sort of questionable research that people mostly ignored or used for hypothesis generation, but now that political teams are picking up the mantle of "science" to justify whatever they want to do anyway, these kinds of bad papers get spread widely with little critical analysis.

Someone else posted this link up-thread, and I think it's a reasonable summary of the current data:

https://peterattiamd.com/putting-out-the-fire-on-the-gas-sto...

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by xwdv on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:58PM (#35756566)
If you want to be a serious cook work in a commercial kitchen.

Induction is a far better choice for residential use.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by bluGill on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:17PM (#35757292)
I can't afford to eat out every meal, not with 3 kids at home. Unless the meal is $20/person I can do better myself at home, and even many of the expensive ones are disappointing compared to what I can do for a fraction of the cost. Good tools help me cook better.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by xwdv on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:23PM (#35757340)
Hence induction stoves.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by collegeburner on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:06PM (#35757724)
i just looked on home depot dot com

gas ranges: $949, $848, $676. boujee model is $1199

induction ranges: $1198 starting, $4138, $1848, $1598, $2498

plus i can't use my nice copper diffuser with them :(

nah, imma stick to gas :)

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by bluGill on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:30PM (#35758642)
If I look to Europe I see induction stoves competitive in price and features to regular electric stoves. In the us they are only on a few high end stoves and not competitively prices. There are a lot of options you might look for in a stove that you cannot get if you also want induction.

By stove I mean the cooktop and oven in one package. That is what my house needs so I haven't looked at the other options.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by lostlogin on Sunday April 30, 2023 @02:33AM (#35760153)
So many people have seperate hob/oven?

This is the more common arrangement where I am and the price difference are much smaller.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by bluGill on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:09AM (#35762210)
The majority have the all in one. The separates is not uncommon by any means, but it isn't what the majority have.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by theshrike79 on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:07AM (#35769869)
Bought a induction range/oven just a few years ago. Was 450€.

Dunno what kind of pricing y'all have on that side of the Atlantic.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by bluGill on Monday May 01, 2023 @08:19AM (#35771768)
Minimum double the cost. Very frustrating as someone with an electric stove that I hate, but it just isn't worth the cost to replace it.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by rhaway84773 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:44PM (#35756980)
Most new buildings in NYC are already heat pump based.

For the obvious reason that it’s much cheaper.

Ban cooking gas as well, and they save a ton of money running gas pipes, and utility companies having to maintain that gas pipe.

Also, “serious cooks” can still use their gas stoves. They just need to hook it up to a cylinder like most of the world manages just fine, but apparently the people in the richest country in the world can’t figure out.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by pclmulqdq on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:52PM (#35757063)
Arguably propane may be better for serious cooking, too. Chefs like to cook things a lot hotter than the average person, and LPG burns hotter than natural gas.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by sudosysgen on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:51PM (#35757049)
I live north of New York, in Canada, and use a heat pump for heating. It works perfectly well.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by emmanuel_1234 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:44PM (#35757996)
2 weeks ago I met a Chinese chef, the kind that cooks with a wok on those extremely noisy burners. He thinks induction is better than anything.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by theshrike79 on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:04AM (#35769855)
> in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold

Scandinavia here. Heat pumps work just fine down to -20C