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Re:Datomic Is Now Free by jchw on Thursday April 27, 2023 @10:17AM (#35728447)
Not complaining about the actual announcement itself here: seems pretty sweet all things considered, But: the "Is it Open Source?" section should lead with "No." It's not a complicated question, and it's not a complicated answer. I think it's weird to talk about having "all the same rights" without explaining why that matters particularly (it does matter, it's just not explained much!) but it is somewhat tangential to the question being posed which has a very clear and straightforward answer.

I hope more companies consider this unusual arrangement at least as an alternative to other approaches. Permissively licensed binaries can come in handy, though it certainly comes with it's risks. For example, Microsoft released the binaries for its WebView2 SDK under the BSD license; this is nice of course, but the side-effect is that we can (and did) reverse engineer the loader binary back to source code. I suspect that's unlikely to happen for any substantially large commercial product, and I am not a lawyer so I can't be sure this isn't still legally dubious, but it's still worth considering: the protections of a EULA are completely gone here, if you just distribute binaries under a vanilla permissive open source license.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by kevincox on Thursday April 27, 2023 @10:34AM (#35728759)
I felt the exact same thing. I was pretty sure the answer was "No" but they were too chicken to write it.

Were they hoping that people wouldn't notice?

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by a2800276 on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:10AM (#35729322)
You'd think they could have just left that question out of their FAQ and licensed it with a "free-as-in-beer" click-through license.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by nerdponx on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:10AM (#35729324)
Probably. They were hoping that the less-informed (like me) would see "The Datomic binaries are being released under the Apache 2.0 license" and think "Datomic is relicensed under Apache 2.0".
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by sneak on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:04PM (#35730155)
It worked for Docker Desktop and BSC.

The products even have github repos! There's just no source in them.

It's open source cosplay.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by unionpivo on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:16PM (#35730347)
> It's open source cosplay.

I am stilling that phrase. It's perfect.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by xpe on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:02AM (#35729195)
Saying “no” also would provide a nice opportunity for Nubank to explain why.

To some, the answer is “open source” no matter the question. Hello wagging tail, meet dog.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by MrGilbert on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:07AM (#35729273)
I'm not sure, but I think from a marketing perspective, you do not want to write "No" anywhere. I might be wrong, and I'd love if someone with knowledge in this area could answer. It's something I recall from the back of my mind...
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by JoshTriplett on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:21AM (#35729474)
Dishonesty and subterfuge are bad marketing tactics.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by switchbak on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:47AM (#35729851)
Marketing to developers is also decidedly different than for non devs. We've been baited and switched, and screwed over a million times (thanks Google). It takes a lot of trust building to get me to trust any organization.

I especially don't trust free shit if I don't have access and control of the future of the code. Even then it's not a sure thing.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by newswasboring on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:58AM (#35730011)
Is it though? Seems to me that most marketing today is subterfuge.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by thomastjeffery on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:12PM (#35730292)
Is most marketing good? I don't think so.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by newswasboring on Thursday April 27, 2023 @04:24PM (#35734035)
I don't know what you are calling "good". That is a super loaded word. I would say it is effective though. The baseline evidence for that is how much money gets spent in that industry, I guess.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by thomastjeffery on Thursday April 27, 2023 @04:27PM (#35734063)
> The baseline evidence for that is how much money gets spent in that industry, I guess.

I can't imagine a clearer example of circular reasoning.

I can lift exactly as much weight as I decide to put on the barbell.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by newswasboring on Thursday April 27, 2023 @04:48PM (#35734339)
While I see your point, please note people actually spending money don't just look at how much money is in the industry. They have internal metrics and can track performance of individual marketing campaigns. I called it a baseline argument because I'm not a marketing expert so this it the only real KPI __I__ understand.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by thomastjeffery on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:20PM (#35749421)
My argument is that you are not alone: people in the industry don't have much else to go on either.

Marketing performance is an incredibly confoundable variable.

For example, I have heard one commercial at least 5 times in the last week: advertising open positions at McDonald's. Part of that very commercial stated that, "1 in 8 people have worked at a McDonald's." I am literally one of those people! How could anyone possibly measure the effectiveness of that commercial? Is it even meant to be effective at all?

The overwhelming majority of advertising I see is from "household name brands". The notion I have heard is that the goal is not to introduce themselves to new customers, or even drive more traffic to their brand: it's to keep their status as a "household name". Do they do this because it is effective, or because they are simply big enough to afford it?

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by JoshTriplett on Thursday April 27, 2023 @06:28PM (#35735333)
> I would say it is effective though.

Really depends on your metrics. Very little of it builds long-term trust that didn't already exist. Much of it abuses long-term trust.

See the discussion on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35590734

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by Timwi on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:11AM (#35729346)
Being a marketing tactic makes it more scummy, not less.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by nerdponx on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:09AM (#35729311)
I didn't realize it was possible to release binaries under a different license from the source code that generated them. In this case, is the "source code" just the physical machine code or bytecode in the binary?
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by jchw on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:34AM (#35729670)
Disclaimer; I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

A copyright license is a copyright license: in theory, all a copyright license does is give you additional rights to use something. Using a license like Apache 2 for binaries is somewhat unconventional, but it's totally possible. It (obviously) does not give you access to the source code, and I think this could never work with the GPL and other copyleft licenses because they use wording that implies you need to distrubute the source code, which you don't have.

The copyright owner, of course, has ownership, so their obligations don't really change by virtue of giving someone a copyright license. As far as I know, they could give someone a license to use something that is completely invalid and could never actually be used, and they can definitely do things like stop distributing under one license and switch to another. They own the source code, and they own the binaries (I believe the binaries would be considered a sort of derivative work in copyright terms, but again, not a lawyer.) So when they distribute a binary under a given license, it's unrelated to any particular distribution of source code. The only time this gets complex is when the ownership of a asset is split among many disparate parties, at which point everyone is pretty much beholden to the copyright licenses; like open source projects without CLAs. But if they own the source code entirely, they could, for example, distribute some source code under GPL, but then distribute modified binaries under a commercial license with a EULA, and not redistribute the modified source code, since it's their code to license to others, not a license they are subjected to themselves.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by remram on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:40PM (#35730751)
You can, but most open-source license make little sense when applied to binaries. Like in this case, the Apache 2 license doesn't make distinction between the source and binary, referring to both as "the Work":

> You may reproduce and distribute copies of the Work or Derivative Works thereof in any medium, with or without modifications, and in Source or Object form, provided that (...)

Applying this only to their binaries directly contradicts what the license says.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by squeaky-clean on Thursday April 27, 2023 @03:31PM (#35733373)
I suppose you could modify the binaries directly and redistribute and it would be legally allowed? Not like anyone is going to do that though.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by TheCoelacanth on Thursday April 27, 2023 @03:10PM (#35733120)
If you think about it, that's happening every time that you get a closed-source binary distributed to you. They're giving you a license to the binary, but not to the source.

It's certainly weird for the binary license to be Apache, rather than some proprietary EULA, though.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by assbuttbuttass on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:28AM (#35729587)
I am not a lawyer, but doesn't the Apache license specifically grant the right to redistribute the source code?

> You may reproduce and distribute copies of the Work or Derivative Works thereof in any medium, with or without modifications, and in Source or Object form

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by mbreese on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:37AM (#35729705)
But what if you never had the source form? You can’t redistribute what you never had…

This is actually an interesting question. But I can’t see how a binary only distribution would be in the spirit of the Apache license.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by ilc on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:49AM (#35729893)
It is the very reason the license exists.

It is in the spirit and the letter of the license to do binary only distribution.

Why do you think so many companies are pushing the Apache License 2.0 over the GPL?

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by mbreese on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:32PM (#35730617)
I thought the reason was the explicit patent language and lack of license virality.

The Apache license 2 is pretty clear that binary only distribution is allowed, but I think it’s also clear that the assumption is that source is available in some form. Otherwise, why would you care about derivative works?

As is, it would be possible to decompile the JVM code into something resembling source code and then distribute that with or without modification. Which just seems odd to me.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by jrmg on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:16PM (#35730343)
It’s runs on a JVM, right? Presumably it could be decompiled and cleaned up (might be a massive task - but possible), and the reconstructed source would fall under the Apache license.

What a weird choice to make.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by charesjrdan on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:06PM (#35730199)
There are also similar datalog immutable databases with fully open source codebases out there too like https://www.xtdb.com/ or https://datahike.io/
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by iLemming on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:40PM (#35749524)
Came here to search for the mention of XTDB (formerly known as Crux). I have never tried Datomic and only trivially played with XTDB, does anyone know if there's a comprehensive comparison of the two?
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by refset on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:00AM (#35750701)
1, 2 and 4 are not to be trusted ;)
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by butternoodle on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:52AM (#35752072)
I'm tickled you asked ChatGPT but I think it misses the the forest for the trees somewhat.

1. Architecture - XTDB is designed to work with Kafka, but it also works with typical JDBC databases as a datastore. Datomic can use SQL databases, DynamoDB or Cassandra if you want distribution. I personally would think long and hard before I introduced a distributed database to my organisation "because it scales".

Part of the value proposition of Datomic is it easily scales read workloads horizontally and by isolating read and writes into separate processes it improves write performance significantly. The metric usually thrown around is 75% of CPU cycles in a traditional RDBMS are concurrency coordination, which is avoided by the Datomic model. That number is quite old now so I don't know if it's still accurate as of 2023.

2. Query language - both use Datalog and support the Datomic `pull` syntax. XTDB also supports SQL.

3. Datomic's EAVT quadruplets are a compelling feature because they are so generic and can be used/re-used in many contexts. A document database would have to fit your use case pretty directly.

4. Datomic has a single transactor process. Do you need distributed transactions? Does Datomic need distributed transactions? You'd have to find someone from say, Nubank, and ask them for war stories. :-)

5. Datomic is now free-as-in-beer.

In my unqualified opinion XTDB is appropriate to choose in the following situations:

- You need to model "valid time" as part of your domain.

- Do you want a document database and are happy with everything that entails?

- You need access to the source code of your database.

- Do you have existing analysts who know SQL but don't know or can't learn Datalog?

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by thomastjeffery on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:10PM (#35730255)
They lead with, "The Datomic binaries are being released under the Apache 2.0 license."

I can feel the internal open vs. closed source argument from here.

Re:Datomic Is Now Free by erichocean on Thursday April 27, 2023 @01:17PM (#35731398)
Eh, it's Java bytecode and it's Apache 2. So you can patch Datomic and extend it without breaking the license.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by slim on Thursday April 27, 2023 @03:07PM (#35733087)
You can also probably decompile it
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by JBiserkov on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:16PM (#35735725)
Decompile it to Java - yes, decompile it to Clojure - highly doubtful.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by erichocean on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:55PM (#35736362)
There are projects in Clojure to decompile Clojure-derived Java bytecode to Clojure. It works pretty well overall since Clojure's compiler isn't too fancy.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by ithrow on Thursday April 27, 2023 @05:10PM (#35734655)
I wonder if public benchmarks are now allowed with the binaries.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by KingMob on Friday April 28, 2023 @02:59AM (#35738329)
Somebody asked about the Dewitt Clause in the Slack, and got crickets.
Re:Datomic Is Now Free by daveguy on Thursday April 27, 2023 @03:43PM (#35733526)
Given the recent bait and switch moves by many companies from free-for-everyone open source to free-for-users-only (eg apache to agpl), it seems like doing this with "binaries only" practically admits to a bait and switch plan.