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Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by hibikir on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @12:42AM (#35610032)
If anything, you are being too nice to US suburbs: It's perfectly possible to have towns that are much denser than any US suburb. My Spanish home town has about 100K inhabitants: You'd not call that a city anywhere in the US. And yet, It's basically a circle with a one mile radius: Yes, just one mile. In that situation, one can walk everywhere, and public transportation is limited to the elderly, people carrying heavy things, and the impatient that live in the outskirts of town.

As a pre-teen, I could go to any of my friend's houses to do tabletop roleplaying all by myself. If my mother needed a break from parenting, she had three different siblings living within a quarter mile. When your average building is 6 stories tall, and your typical street is 30 feet wide building to building, a quarter mile circle holds a lot of families! In comparison, my neighbor from across the street in the US suburbs is 60 feet away, door to door, and a quarter mile circle won't get me to 300 front doors, total.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by Gigachad on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @02:27AM (#35610607)
I think people don't realise how dense an area can be without needing highrises.

Even just townhouses which are still "single family" buildings on their own land are roughly 4x denser than detached houses.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by alwayslikethis on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:22AM (#35612498)
Single family homes often also have lawns and yards, which is mostly unused space
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by vkou on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @03:15AM (#35610939)
> When your average building is 6 stories tall, and your typical street is 30 feet wide building to building, a quarter mile circle holds a lot of families!

Someone walking through a six-story downtown is, by such a measurement, traveling faster than a car traveling at ~90 mph through suburbia.

(Of course, a car can't travel that quickly through suburbia.)

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by atoav on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @03:32AM (#35611063)
How much use you can pull out of that depends on how it is zoned. In European cities it is not uncommon to have grocery stores, pubs, cafes, bakeries and such within walking distance of your home. My next grocery store is 2 minutes by foot. The next 24/7 store where I can get beer 5 minutes, the next park 8 minutes.

In the worst flat in these terms I ever had in a city over here was 10 minutes walk to the next grocery shop and this was a dirt cheap flat on a loud main road.

Even parts of the town where you have mostly residential housing will have the occasional small shop, grocery store, gas station or similar. If I understood zoning in the US correctly this kind of mixing is at times even forbidden?

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by pas on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @03:54AM (#35611209)
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by jjav on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @01:53PM (#35617383)
> In European cities it is not uncommon to have grocery stores, pubs, cafes, bakeries and such within walking distance of your home. My next grocery store is 2 minutes by foot. The next 24/7 store where I can get beer 5 minutes, the next park 8 minutes.

To be fair this exists in many of areas in the US as well.

From my suburban single family home in a small town in California I can easily walk to all those things in a few minutes, including 24x7 supermarket, another nicer supermarket, plenty of restaurants, movies, stores of nearly all kinds, playgrounds, sports fields, etc.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by jerrre on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @08:19AM (#35612988)
very interesting way to look at it!
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by bombcar on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @04:22AM (#35611368)
100k is certainly a city. That’s quite large - and for many places in the US the local “city” is of that size.

People definitely call Ventura, CA “the city” and its 100k.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by jodrellblank on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @06:37AM (#35612188)
> 100k is certainly a city.

In the UK “city” status is conferred by being on the government’s list of cities and isn’t automatic based on size or presence of a Cathedral or anything else.

See: Tom Scott on YouTube “the town which forgot to be a city” - https://youtube.com/watch?v=kBaLb1C4WAg

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by mcv on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @08:15AM (#35612948)
In Netherland it traditionally means the place has city rights. But Den Haag (The Hague) never had city rights (being the seat of the count of Holland), so despite being 500k large, it's technically not a city. Though in all other aspects it really is. A much younger city, Almere (200k+), a fairly new suburb of Amsterdam but now the 5th largest city in the country, is far too young for such city rights. But we also have "cities" that have only a few hundred inhabitants.

The province of Friesland famously has 11 cities, but many of those are tiny, and it doesn't include several of the largest towns that are not technically cities.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by TRiG_Ireland on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @09:32AM (#35613768)
One thing I learned from the comments of that video (Lennart Regebro):

> In Sweden, the concept of "city" was removed in 1971. Everything became just municipalities.

> This annoyed Stockholm, so in 1983, Stockholm municipality simply renamed itself "Stockholm Stad" (Stockholm City). That pissed Malmö and Göteborg off, and they also promptly renamed themselves to be cities. Today 14 municipalities n Sweden claim to be cities.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by bombcar on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @04:22PM (#35619493)
Some places in the US define what a city is, but it can be very small - Fourth class: Cities with 9,999 or fewer residents.

It has more to do with what services the city provides vs the size (cities provide trash pickup, etc).

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by jesperlang on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @04:36AM (#35611444)
More Europe anecdata:

I live in a small town of around 2000. Within 5-10 minutes walking I got: a restaurant, a cafe, a grocery store, pizzeria and kindergarten. Within 5-10 minutes of biking I have: public library, another grocery store, two bars and a restaurant. Public transport is readily available to take me to the neighbouring hustle-bustle (pop. 600'000) within 35 minutes. So my town is 50 times smaller than your Spanish example but it is perfectly possible to have all these services at this scale as well!

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by maccard on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @05:27AM (#35611735)
The 2k town often/usually only has one of a cafe/restaurant/grocery store. Sounds like you've got a good town though!

I live in a "mid sized" european city (500k), about 2km from the center, and the _only_ think I use my car for is getting out of the city. Within 10m walking I have pretty much everything I need, and within 20m of public transport (ironically, walking can be quicker for the short distances), I have pretty much everything I _want_!

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by holistio on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:44AM (#35612680)
I live in an area in one of the major European cities (Budapest) that locals just call "the village".

It's right in the middle, close to the central district. It's got everything. From barbers to art galleries, from Portuguese cuisine to folklore shops, from luthiers to really good schools. A bustling art scene, clean streets. A huge shopping centre a nice park and an international transportation hub are all in in walking distance (<10 min), while the district itself manages to stay cozy and friendly.

I have friends who haven't left the borders of this "village" during Covid, it's really got everything. Part of a big city while being not part of it at the same time.

Also, I come from a 20k small town (so right between the two examples above) and had a very similar experience there, apart from everything the world has to offer being easily accessible once you decide to hop on a tram or your bike.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by maccard on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @10:21AM (#35614404)
I grew up in a 50k "small city", and I hated it personally. It was big enough to have "everything you wanted", but small enough to feel like there was no escape, no anonymity, no privacy. Everyone knew everyone, and everyone knew everyone's business. The larger city with a smaller neighbourhood (which is a good description of most european cities that I've spent time in) are a great compromise I think.
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by mcv on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @08:09AM (#35612890)
I live in Amsterdam (800k), not in the center, but within 2 km walk I have half a dozen supermarkets, untold numbers of restaurants, at least 2 hardware stores, several bakeries, pharmacists, half a dozen primary schools, a secondary (high) school.

In the village I grew up in (then 40k, now 100k), every neighbourhood had a shopping mall with one or two supermarkets, a Chinese restaurant, a few other shops, surrounded by 3 primary schools (one public, one protestant, one catholic). The same everywhere. Don't expect any bars, though. Or restaurants other than Chinese. I believe the town had one disco that served several neighbouring towns as well.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by dugmartin on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:59AM (#35612798)
US anecdata:

I also live in a small town of around 2000 in rural Massachusetts. Within the same walking distance I have: full elementary school (kindergarten through 6th grade), public tennis and basketball courts, a public indoor gym, a grocery store, several restaurants, several bookstores, several banks, a pharmacy, a bowling alley and a few more misc stores. We also have public transport to the nearest big town but it is only a few times a day.

The only reason my town is dense and walkable is due to geography. It was settled 250 years ago and it is nestled on a river between two "mountains" (really just big hills) so once all the available space filled up 100 years ago it just stopped growing (my house is on the outskirts of town and was built 115 years ago).

In comparison I grew up in a sprawling small town in the US midwest which has embraced even more sprawl since I moved 30+ years ago and I hate going back. Its just souless and unwalkable as it has endless land to expand into and no plan to keep it human scale.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by detourdog on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @08:29AM (#35613086)
More or less the same demographics and same experience. The North Western Mass town I'm in was founded as the gateway to the west. It is nestled in low land between three mountain ranges. Our side of one range drains to the Atlantic through Hudson River the other side drains to the Long Island Sound. The public transportation is tough for us if you want to leave town. We are so mobile that I find it an odd expectation to live close to your friends.
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by jbullock35 on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @08:17AM (#35612972)
Multiple bookstores in a U.S. town of 2000 people? Is it a college town?
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by mtalantikite on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @10:34AM (#35614553)
There are a lot of small towns like that in western massachusetts, which are in proximity to the five colleges, but aren't in them. Places like Montague or Shelburne Falls have areas of density in town that you can walk around in and get to things, and then you can drive 20-30 minutes into Amherst or Northampton or another larger town, closer to the universities.

I went to school out there and have friends from the surrounding areas, it's nice if you're wanting something more rural but still near things. The key to it is a lot of the towns were built 100-200 or so years ago, when it actually was necessary to build close to each other in community.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by detourdog on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @11:52AM (#35615691)
Western Massachusetts is unique I have 2 world class art museums and a couple of other smaller museums within biking distance of my house.
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by jbullock35 on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @02:35PM (#35618008)
Williamstown area?
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by detourdog on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @03:28PM (#35618832)
Yes.
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by jbullock35 on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @02:35PM (#35618001)
I don't think that's a sufficient condition. I too am from a New England town that was incorporated more than 200 years ago. But it doesn't have the density or the amenities that you're describing. (I wish that it did!)
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by mtalantikite on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @05:13PM (#35620260)
Yeah that's fair, it's never just one thing and not all old towns are going to be like that, but it's pretty common in at least Massachusetts, particularly if you're in proximity to a larger town. It's also a much denser state in general than Vermont/Maine/New Hampshire, from what I remember growing up there.
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by detourdog on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:25AM (#35627846)
Yes, we have more Art Museums than anything we need in our daily lives. What I like about it is the lack of access to high consumption. What is bad is that the large chain stores killed the local businesses and then realized the market is too small to really care. Jbullock35 how about some clues about your town so we can try to guess.
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by dugmartin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:53AM (#35627011)
You nailed it - I live in Shelburne Falls.
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by prottog on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @10:56AM (#35614825)
> Within the same walking distance

Aye, but I bet GP's home town in Spain is much more pleasant to walk in from November to March ;-)

That aside, there are some real gems among Western Mass towns! I wonder, with all the empty land in this country (even in places very hospitable to human life), if it's possible to found new towns built in the "European" model of a central plaza surrounded by multifamily, mixed-use developments within walking distance? Were I a billionaire, this is the sort of stuff I would explore.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by newhaus1994 on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @11:24AM (#35615219)
I really do love New England towns in general. I went to undergrad at a small Vermont college and being walkable or bikeable to restaurants, bars, grocery stores, etc. but also being immersed in nature was one of the greatest experiences I've ever had.
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by thatfrenchguy on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @01:04PM (#35616721)
> The only reason my town is dense and walkable is due to geography. It was settled 250 years ago and it is nestled on a river between two "mountains" (really just big hills) so once all the available space filled up 100 years ago it just stopped growing (my house is on the outskirts of town and was built 115 years ago).

It's not geography, it's history. The only nice places in the US are places that were built before cars.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by mcv on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:58AM (#35612795)
I always struggle with the difference between a town and a city, because Dutch has only one word for them: stad. A stad (plural "steden" is something that in the middle ages had city rights (or is it town rights?), a dorp (village) does not. And this has lead Netherland to have some steden of only a few hundred inhabitants, while some villages have more than 100,000, which of course makes no sense. The place I grew up in even has "dorp" in its name, so I will always consider it a village (besides, there's nothing to do there, but I guess that goes with suburbs), but it has about 100k inhabitants by now.

I guess to me, the real difference is density and how much there is to do. A city has a bar on almost every street corner, a village, no matter how big, does not.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by GoldenRacer on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @09:44AM (#35613908)
Cities and towns sound pretty similar to your steden and dorp. The US can get complicated because every state defines things their own way but generally there are different legal requirements and rights for cities vs towns.

In North Carolina there is a "city" called Brevard with a population of just under 8,000 but you also have the "town" of Cary with population 170,000.

Of course there is still the issue of how the words are commonly used vs their actual legal definition but if you ask 100 different people the difference between a city and town, you'll get 100 slightly different definitions. Someone that grew up in New York City will have a very different definition than someone that grew up in Wyoming 50 miles from the nearest gas station. At the end of the day, there's just some vague notion that cities are bigger than towns.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by Symbiote on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @12:44PM (#35616415)
A dorp is a village, note all the English village names ending in -thorp or -thorpe.

Although we can't trust the cognates, as 'stad' is related to English 'stead', which meant a settlement of any size.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by pg_1234 on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @03:39PM (#35618977)
Traditionally the distinction was you had to have a cathedral to be a city.

... I suppose the modern equivalent is a CBD.

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by somewhereoutth on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @10:26AM (#35614452)
In my Portuguese apartment block I have 2 restaurants, a cafe, a hairdresser, a phone shop and some other commercial I haven't quite identified.

From the front door I can throw rocks at 2 more cafes, another restaurant, a launderette, a playground and a car dealer. There is a basket ball court out the back.

Nothing special about my 7 storey block, but when a certain density is reached things start to work really well

Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by ttoinou on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @11:19AM (#35615140)
Where is that more precisely ?
Re:You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You? by somewhereoutth on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @05:35PM (#35620600)
Lisbon suburbs