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Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:17AM (#35590702)
I disagree with her conclusion. Raw salmon has no inherent pathogens of interest. People eat salmon raw at sushi bars. I’d be pretty unconcerned about the food safety issue. (Like any food there’s some risk of cross contamination, but that’s so rare.)

As someone who has dealt with food safety (both as a hobbyist and professionally) a lot I can tell you most of what you read is based on government recommendations, which are designed to keep the dumbest and unhealthiest people from hurting themselves. The government doesn’t get thanked when you eat delicious, not-overcooked food but they do get blamed when people get sick, so their incentive is to tell you to overcook everything. There’s no reason you need to get that thanksgiving turkey to 165 or whatever the hell they recommend, but they do it because they know a lot of people will measure the turkey in the wrong spot so if they told you the actual 145 a lot of people would be eating breasts that never got close to 130.

I don’t know why you’d want to cook your salmon in the dishwasher, but the time/temp is absolutely fine for anyone not immunocompromised.

So I would say that her video showed that it doesn’t bring it up to the temperature recommended by (I assume) the FDA, but not that it is unsafe, as those are two very different things.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by HWR_14 on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:38AM (#35590930)
Raw salmon is host to a variety of parasites that can hurt humans.
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @12:59PM (#35591788)
Raw meaning uncooked. Almost all the salmon you buy was previously frozen, but it’s still raw. Besides, her temperature chart showed it well above the point where parasites die.

I was contrasting it to things like smoked salmon which have had listeria issues due to poor processing.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by bookofjoe on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:59AM (#35591184)
The "raw" salmon at sushi bars has previously been frozen.
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @12:57PM (#35591756)
So has the raw salmon at the grocery store. You’d have a hard time buying fish that hasn’t been previously frozen, you just don’t know it because grocery stores thaw it before it goes into the display case.
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by pvaldes on Sunday April 16, 2023 @01:36PM (#35592300)
Nope. Raw salmon is fresh when sold (unless sold smoked and spiced yet in a package).

You can't re-freeze a frozen fish. Sushi bars store the products in a special refrigerator, ultrafrozen. They are obliged by law to do this.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @01:48PM (#35592418)
Farmed salmon can be sold never frozen for sushi. Wild can’t. It is one of the few fish that can be purchased that way because it has very low incidence of parasites.

But still her own graph showed it was well above 140C (the temperature at which parasites are all dead) and she was talking entirely about microbes.

So even if you purchased Never frozen farmed salmon and cooked it this way, you’d be very safe. Even if you didn’t cook it at all you’d be very safe, as evidenced by the fact that the government allows it.

Say what you want about our government’s food regulations, they are not at all risk tolerant.

I wouldn’t want to cook salmon in a dishwasher, but I wouldn’t hesitate to eat it for food safety reasons, and her video made me less concerned, not more.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @04:12PM (#35593834)
Also I don’t think sushi restaurants typically have any special freezers for this. You can reach the required level in a regular commercial freezer. -4F for one week. Any commercial freezer gets that cold, and that step is taken by the wholesalers anyway for any sushi that requires it.
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by joecool1029 on Sunday April 16, 2023 @05:34PM (#35594484)
> Most of this fishes are domestic.

Completely wrong, Spain relies on imports from Norway and Sweden for farmed salmon and the US for wild pacific salmon. Domestic production is negligible: https://www.tridge.com/data-insights/market-price-atlantic-s...

> Sushi bars store the products in a special ultrafreeze storage,for some time. They are obliged by law to do this.

Maybe in Spain, this is not required by the restaurant in the US, some jurisdictions require recordkeeping to prove their suppliers froze this for them (NYC) and most source from a parasite-free supplier but the restaurant itself only needs to maintain safe storage temperature. The FDA guidelines are enforced by local health jurisdictions in the US and may not be in complete alignment. More on it: https://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/nyregion/sushi-fresh-from...

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by pvaldes on Monday April 17, 2023 @09:26AM (#35600322)
> Spain relies on imports from Norway and Sweden

With domestic I mean a domestic animal, one breed in captivity, not one from Spain. I should probably used "domesticated" instead.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by schwartzworld on Sunday April 16, 2023 @03:36PM (#35593532)
Sushi freezers are colder than regular freezers. This is real galaxy brain stuff.
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @04:08PM (#35593810)
Ha. I don’t think it’s even true. I mean it wouldn’t surprise me if some sushi restaurant somewhere had such things, but restaurant supply companies don’t sell extra cold freezers. Seafood wholesalers might have such things but I’d wager the vast majority of sushi restaurants are using regular freezers.
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by joecool1029 on Sunday April 16, 2023 @05:48PM (#35594573)
Correct, however they do exist and some higher-end restaurants use them. Places usually advertise them as 'super freezers' that operate at -60C, some of the michelin star type restaurants go deeper with medical cryocoolers. It's becoming more common now that places like NYC have a regulation requiring freezing (where before a restaurant could just source from a parasite-free supplier).
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:39PM (#35596614)
* * *
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by schwartzworld on Sunday April 16, 2023 @05:49PM (#35594580)
Sushi in the us has to be held at -20C for 7 days, or -35C for 15 hours. They absolutely sell extra cold freezers that go to that temperature. Your home freezer won't.

> I’d wager the vast majority of sushi restaurants are using regular freezers.

After the 7 days at -20 the fish can just be transferred to a regular freezer. So you're right, most places probably don't have the special freezer in house.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:28PM (#35596564)
No, it’s -4 for 7 days. Any commercial freezer gets that cold. Mine is a cheapo Avantco and goes to -8.
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by schwartzworld on Monday April 17, 2023 @06:59AM (#35599076)
-4F is -20C.
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Monday April 17, 2023 @07:46AM (#35599362)
Ha oh yeah. Missed the units.

Well yeah every freezer does that.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by joecool1029 on Sunday April 16, 2023 @05:02PM (#35594240)
I looked into this awhile back. While you're correct about previous freezing this is about mitigating microbe risk, not parasite destruction. The FDA has a specification that the fish must be frozen down to in order to ensure destruction of parasites. (I couldn't find a direct link to the FDA's guideline, here's one from MN that's the same: https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/environment/food/... )

Ahi Tuna and most farmed Atlantic salmon (Norway is especially safe: https://web.archive.org/web/20200426100625/https://nifes.hi.... ) have low to no parasite risk. However, I would not buy and eat wild salmon sashimi without at least freezing for a week first. Even retailers as big as Costco don't have freezers meeting the guideline.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:26PM (#35596557)
I think any fish requiring such freezing likely would have been frozen to spec before it got to Costco or any restaurants. I’ve never asked any of the seafood purveyors I know about it, but I do know you can buy the stuff from them and use it immediately. I don’t trust the government for much but when it comes to being overly regulatory on food safety they’re pretty tough to beat. If it’s being sold ready to use I’m sure it was processed before, and there’s a HACCP plan in place to ensure it.
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by darknavi on Sunday April 16, 2023 @12:16PM (#35591345)
> People eat salmon raw at sushi bars. I’d be pretty unconcerned about the food safety issue.

That's because other people have prepared the fish for you. [0]

> Sushi-grade fish must be frozen before being consumed, to further prevent any of those food-borne illnesses, and this is usually done via flash freezing, sometimes immediately after sushi-grade salmon, for example, is caught.

[0] https://aksalmonco.com/blogs/learn/sushi-grade-fish

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @12:20PM (#35591393)
The freezing is only because of parasites, not microbes. It doesn’t kill microbes. Practically all of the fish you purchase is actually sushi grade, having been flash frozen on the boat, it is a meaningless term. If you go to a restaurant, supply store, or a fish wholesaler, you will have a hard time finding any fish that is commonly consumed as sushi that isn’t labeled sushi grade. It’s like how nearly everything that doesn’t have wheat in it is labeled gluten-free, it isn’t because they did something special.

Her temperature charts show it getting well above 140°F, which is the temperature at which all of the parasites die, and they do not form spores or come back later. So it is completely safe in that regard also.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by kylecazar on Sunday April 16, 2023 @02:51PM (#35593117)
And jelly beans have a giant Fat Free boast on the packaging. Healthy choices!
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @03:16PM (#35593329)
Ha! I’m surprised they don’t put fat and gluten free on bags of sugar!
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by nunuvit on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:38PM (#35595918)
Almost everyone misunderstands the recommendations. 165 F is only meant to be held for 1 second. To achieve the same level of pathogen reduction, you can trade temperature for time.
Re:Dishwasher Salmon by mattmaroon on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:35PM (#35596601)
No, nobody misunderstands them. The recommendations leave out time entirely. People aren’t misunderstanding them, they’re just overly simplified. That’s why they’re bad. You are correct that you can do lower temperatures for longer, but FDA guidelines don’t mention this.

https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2011/05/25/cooking-meat-chec....

“The safe cooking temperature for all poultry products, including ground chicken and turkey, stays the same at 165 ºF.”

These are the same guidelines you encounter in the restaurant world, however in packaged food production you submit your recipes to process authorities who actually do consult time/temperature charts. But for restaurant and home guidelines they assume (not incorrectly) that it is basically impossible to ensure the restaurant or home chef cooked the chicken until the coolest part was at 145 for 2 minutes or whatever TF time/temp is needed to get the required salmonella reduction.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by nunuvit on Monday April 17, 2023 @07:50AM (#35599394)
I didn't mean to say that recommendations give explicit alternatives. A temperature recommendation without explicit time is implicitly instantaneous, and without explicit location is implicitly at the coldest spot. From that, you can infer that the recommendation might be overkill, but not by how much.

I didn't know that they officially reduced the temperature and added a rest time, despite the article announcing the changes being over a decade old, so thank you for the link. I'm curious if it was in response to something like so many people ignoring the recommendation that they were getting sick, or if the baked ham industry advocated for it.

Re:Dishwasher Salmon by frejoirfeoi on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:26AM (#35612528)
> As someone who has dealt with food safety (both as a hobbyist and professionally)

I can't help but wonder why someone would mention their hobby experience alongside their professional experience and list their hobby experience before their professional experience.