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Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by chaostheory on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @04:01AM (#35522203)
I’m not sure how Sun Tzu is complete garbage when his strategies were vague and often not specific, so you can adapt them according to the situation

To me the problem is that the study of war, like the study of economics or any other social study; isn’t a real science. There is no repeatable theoretical model, including The Art of War. There are no universal laws that always hold true in all situations.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by eru on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:13AM (#35523023)
> There are no universal laws that always hold true in all situations.

You could still apply statistics. That's what people who breed animals or plants do. Every organism is different and individual, too.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by chaostheory on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:58AM (#35526078)
I was referring to social studies. Biology on the other hand is a real science. A science has laws.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by eru on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:31PM (#35534359)
Not sure I buy that.

There's plenty of studies in economics (especially micro-economics) that have statistical laws just like biology does. Similar for psychology. And even for war:

It's hard to run controlled experiments at the largest scales, but there have been plenty of experiments and studies at smaller scales. And some of them yielded statistical 'laws'.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by mcv on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:44AM (#35523262)
> There are no universal laws that always hold true in all situations.

There are some. An army marches on its stomach. For war, you need three things: money, money and money. Except in a guerilla war maybe. Maybe you're right after all.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by t43562 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @07:09AM (#35523421)
Guerillas need money too. Weapons are not free and guerillas need to eat too.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by michaelt on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:40AM (#35525833)
As long as you've got some bootstrap weapons, you can always steal more from whatever force it is you're fighting against. In WW2 the US proposed sending resistance fighters a million single-shot handguns [1], allowing them to kill occupation forces and take their weapons.

And while men with guns very often get shot, they never starve.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by kjs3 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:52AM (#35526906)
Getting shot is a cost, even if it isn't necessarily 'money'. Resistance fighters do go hungry. The resistance in the Warsaw ghetto had guns; they starved. On the Long March, Mao's men had guns, and they very much faced starvation. And ask the Confederates about the difficulty of feeding a rebel army. The idea that the answer to logistics issues is "moar guns" is comical and more than a little sad.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by michaelt on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @02:01PM (#35528768)
> Getting shot is a cost, even if it isn't necessarily 'money'.

Maybe, but we're evaluating the quote "For war, you need three things: money, money and money" which is presumably about money.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by t43562 on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @07:06AM (#35537753)
That puts you at an extreme disadvantage which could be solved with ... money. And of course in history guerillas often have had sources of supply from other countries who are in effect providing the money. All the proxy wars of the Cold War period were like this - the Chinese or Russians or North Koreans supplying guerillas in Africa against non-communist governments or the US or South Africa doing the same for guerillas against "communist" governments.

I'm from Zimbabwe - everything in Rhodesia was about money. Money needed by the government of the time to stop the guerillas and money needed by the guerillas to house them in neighboring countries, feed and arm them.

Now that Zimbabwe is in terrible economic trouble and has obviously rigged elections and much suppression of opposition voters and of course a military coup that everyone denies was a coup, there is no rebellion and there are no guerillas because they would have no support (no money, no safe harbour, no weapons). The Russians, Chinese, South Africans and DPRK have the situation they want and the US etc don't care about it either.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by sofixa on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:13AM (#35524648)
> For war, you need three things: money, money and money. Except in a guerilla war maybe. Maybe you're right after all.

This seems to imply that money will win you wars, which is not the case. You don't need "money" to get foreign military aid, nor to manufacture small arms in your own factories, especially if you use slaves for that (like the Nazis did).

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by mcv on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:00AM (#35525257)
Money on its own won't win you wars, but you need money to even be able to fight. Sure, you may be able to replace some of the money with slave labour, levies/conscription, but you still need enormous amounts of food, materials, supplies and people, and a lot of that does require money, unless you've managed to completely eradicate money from your society.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by _0ffh on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:51AM (#35523299)
> like the study of economics [...] There are no universal laws that always hold true in all situations

I've got great news for you! There are universal economic laws that always hold true in all situations.

For example, "man acts". You can't deny that, because denying it would be an act in itself, leading to a (performative) contradiction. From this law, and just a few others of a similar kind, you can build a whole structure of logically provable theorems that have profound implications for economics and the social sciences in general.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by jones6ofMont on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @08:21AM (#35524149)
You take 1000 economists and ask them for opinions on a certain problems, you will get hundreds if not thousand different solutions. If you do math say a million mathematicians/physicists, you will almost always get a few if not 1 solution to the problem. By the way, Nobel for economics isnt even part of original Nobel. It basically force fed into it and tag with Nobel label. Economics is essentially just common sense applicable at the specific time...at other times it will fail.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by snapcaster on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:09AM (#35524602)
Like what? can you name one? If this is true, how come the people that study this aren't rich?
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by _0ffh on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:30AM (#35525681)
The law of diminishing marginal utility for example can be logically proven using this method. Alas, knowing it won't make you rich, the world is not that simple.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by knodi123 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:52AM (#35526000)
Whaaa?

> the more of something you have, the less of it you want. This phenomenon is referred to as diminishing marginal utility by economists.

Okay, but I have a counter-example. Money. The people who have the most sometimes still act like penny-pinchers, and lust after even more, and haggle over the smallest things. Therefore the "law of diminishing marginal utility" is more a rule of thumb than a law.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by _0ffh on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @03:58PM (#35530643)
Um, there's not a whole lot of economic laws that are less controversial than the law of diminishing marginal utility. I'll give you a rough outline.

If you own a good G, that you could use to satisfy either a desire D1, or a competing desire D2, you will logically choose to use G to satisfy the greater one of these two desires - the one with the greater subjective utility to you. Let's assume that is D1.

Now, if instead of 1 you have 2 of G, you can satisfy both D1 and D2. As we have already established that the utility you have derived from consuming the first G to achieve D1 must be greater than the utility derived from consuming the second G to achieve D2, the utility of the additional unit of G is diminished when compared to the previous one.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by knodi123 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @05:24PM (#35531783)
I don't see how this addresses my counterexample.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by _0ffh on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:12PM (#35532312)
Your counterexample isn't one. It's a made-up, incoherent mess, that doesn't show in any way what you claim it does. That starts with the incomplete definition of the law itself, which is part of a single sentence that you pasted off a multi-page Wikipedia article on the topic, which isn't exactly the best source in the first place. Why don't you just try to think through the simple explanatory outline I gave you?
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by snapcaster on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @11:49AM (#35541739)
Agree with sibling comment that this is more "heuristic" than "law". There are many things that have basically 0 utility up until some threshold, there are things that become more marginally useful the more of them you have (users for your social media app)
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:10AM (#35524623)
Got a list of these laws, and the logically proven theorems that come from them?
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by _0ffh on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:47AM (#35525932)
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by misja111 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:23AM (#35524782)
Since OP didn't provide any, I looked up some sources for the "man acts" economic axiom. I found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxeology, which is used by the so called Austrian Economic school. Actually the axiom is "man acts purposefully". There is also quite some criticism on it, which can be found on the wiki page as well.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by maxiepoo on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:26AM (#35524813)
Austrian economics is truly indistinguishable from parody
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by rocket_surgeron on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:43AM (#35525024)
I prefer "a doomsday cult but, somehow, even sadder".
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by davidgerard on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:56AM (#35525195)
this is how you get praxeology, right? Which works so well that it literally eschews the concept of testing one's ideas.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by jrm4 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:18AM (#35525537)
Is this satire? I'm sorry, I legitimately cannot tell anymore.

Anyway, if it isn't -- no, there are no universal economic laws, for the very simple reason that "humans are not always rational" and economics is fundamentally about human behavior, in groups, no less.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by _0ffh on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:49AM (#35525960)
Rationality is not assumed, and therefore not required. Only purposeful action.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by jrm4 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:59AM (#35526101)
Oh, please, same thing here.

Let's do us all one better and nail this down.

"Predictable, repeatable action"

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by _0ffh on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @12:15PM (#35527277)
Predictable only insofar as it has to follow some simple rules. For example, if you own a good G, that you could use to satisfy either a desire D1, or a competing desire D2, you will choose to use G to satisfy the greater one of these two desires at that point in time.

Repeatable is even untrue, unless I misunderstand your meaning. First of all, the ranking of your goals or desires is not assumed to be constant over time. Also, it is not assumed that your world model is constant. Quite the opposite, it is often explicitly emphasized that humans have the ability to change their mind about things, for example by learning.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by chaostheory on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @05:20PM (#35531733)
If you can’t disprove something with quantifiable data, then it’s not really a theory in terms of science.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by jesterson on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @03:08AM (#35536000)
> There are no universal laws that always hold true in all situations

As many people pointed out, there are plenty. Humans don't change over course of centuries.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by karatinversion on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @04:28AM (#35536575)
Indeed, many of these are present in Sun Tzu, eg.

- soldiers need to be fed

- attacks on undefended locations are more likely to succeed

- if you can set your enemy on fire, do so, people really don’t like being on fire