International trade and investment are not remotely comparable to the system of global military and monetary dominance led by Washington. China is a huge and influential civilization-state, but it is not (yet) an empire.

China's massive military spending and rapid modernization of its armed forces has made it a formidable military power in the world. The country's nuclear arsenal, advanced missile technology, and expanding naval capabilities have given it a significant military advantage in the Asia-Pacific region and beyond.

Additionally, China has been expanding its presence and influence through strategic investments and development initiatives like the Belt and Road Initiative, which aims to create a network of infrastructure and trade routes across Asia, Africa, and Europe. This expansionist strategy has allowed China to increase its economic and political influence globally, and some experts argue that it reflects an imperialist mindset

Until China installs hundreds of military bases along the Belt and Road to match Washington's global military empire, those "experts" are engaged in motivated and wishful thinking.

I think they are at base #2, so don't get your hopes up.

Military power is not just about the number of bases. The simplest example is cyber warfare, where China has invested heavily and is arguably the world's most formidable power in that area

Scale isn't the same as capability though, and cyber talent isn't exactly hard to find, just ask the Israelis (or maybe HN readers can do a bit of navel gazing). It's not fair to compare script kiddie levels tools like ransomware and cryptominer bots in the same breath as the toys from NSO group and Stuxnet. If we are counting cyber warfare capability by quantity of malware released, I would expect Africa to become a cyber "power" too in the next decade or so, because they have a large somewhat educated population and no good opportunities.

I don't think most HN software engineering folks realize how easy it is to train script kiddies. Most of the big "cybersecurity" consultancies (yes even the big IPOed ones) are staffed by people who basically went through a bootcamp and gained a few certifications. Corporate "security" especially is more about checklists and compliance. You are not getting any real talent like the ICs' blogs that get posted here on HN. The typical staff at cybersecurity companies won't be able to subvert broken branch predictors and post networking stacks exploits on twitter. Those sort of low level application security engineers are a lot rarer and more expensive. Many of the "cybersecurity" companies provide script kiddies and consultants without a STEM background. Forget about fizzbuzz, they are closer to McKinsey than Accenture.

Arguably, based on what? Flimsy attributions based on Chinese strings embedded in payloads?

When has China, as a state actor, done anything as remotely as egregious as STUXNET?

Many reports that China has surveillance embedded in cell tower equipment across the US and in container cranes in every major port. Who knows if they have been behind past cyber attacks on our oil infrastructure and electric grid. We don't hear about it because it's classified/ not diplomatically wise to share that info all the time

Did we learn nothing from the weather balloon circus?

Monitoring the weather = surveiling the weather = spying on the weather = spying = spying on Americans

It's a game of deranged telephone, fueled by the billion-dollar anti-China propaganda industry.

Similarly, did a Chinese OEM implement a SNMP daemon in their gear? Oh no, their literally spying on us1!11

I'm amazed anyone still buys China's "weather balloon" lie. A weather balloon that large and expensive is a major project. It would have a project leader, project webpage, articles and conference papers, sharing of data, government permits for operation, and all kinds of other artifacts that China could trivially point out proving it was a weather balloon. Instead, China has consistently refused to even give a single name or company associated with it. It is the most secretive "weather balloon" I have ever seen.

Buddy, the USAF also shot down weather "spy balloons" from a hobbyist club in the Midwest. You are vastly overestimating the seriousness of this affair.

Buddy, I never said anything about the subsequent balloons. Don’t try to deflect from the point you know I’m making: the first balloon was clearly not a weather balloon.

The US OPM breach.

The majority of those "bases" are like a gym and a barrack

Have they actually been to war or tested? The last time they were close to actual war was the border skirmish in the late 70s with Vietnam when they were fighting for influence over Laos (or was that Cambodia?). It's been almost half a century without any real action. The wooden stick and stones border disputes with India do not count. What are their actual capabilities?

Yes, but they do not have military bases sprinkled all over the world like the US does.

They have police stations all over the world instead. Different strategy https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/04/world/china-overseas-police-s...

Important to remember this is often on behalf of willing member states, re: NATO, the military pacts that span through Southeast Asia (there are many).

The US official policy (and they do follow this) is that nations reserve the right to ask us to leave, too, and yet, few do.

We don't always get it right, but I don't think the Chinese are interested in global peace keeping even on the surface. Its much more "winner take all". I think that does speak to a real difference.

I don't even know to respond to the assertion that China is more irresponsibility militaristic than USA. Based on which facts?

its not that simple either.

I readily acknowledge our misadventures. We're a complex nation, same as any other, with real costs and unfortunately many ruined lives at home and abroad.

I'm not pleading ignorance, there are aspects of "American Exceptionalism" that are problematic and indefensible. I never (as many Americans) supported invading Afghanistan or Iraq. The CIA should have never messed around in many countries, (including but not limited to Iran, Cuba and Argentina)

I also want to recognize that I can freely talk about this publicly, openly, and take to the streets with protests against such things, without fear the government will lock me up in a labor camp or "disappear" people (re: Jack Ma).

Its foolish to think that just because we've made mistakes that we don't have real advantages on the world stage that may still be far preferable to some alternatives, for starters.

Nuance is required here, no? Its important to evaluate all aspects of what you're dealing with.

> Its foolish to think that just because we've made mistakes that we don't have real advantages on the world stage that may still be fair preferable to some alternatives, for starters.

Please embellish. What does USA do that offsets its constant warmongering and economic coercion, and how can you possibly know that outside of blind faith?

This wasn't what I said, not even in spirit, so if you have a specific redress I'm open to it, but so far you're throwing empty statements the wall

So you don't believe in Chinese economic coercion?

> I also want to recognize that I can freely talk about this publicly, openly, and take to the streets with protests against such things, without fear the government will lock me up in a labor camp or "disappear" people (re: Jack Ma).

It's because those protests are almost totally impotent and actually reinforce state power. The protests against the Iraq war were some of the largest in history and achieved precisely squat. When there is some seed of real potential, like the Floyd protests, everything you're saying doesn't happen absolutely can and does.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/body-cam-footage-shows-minneapolis...

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-us...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/police-shoot...

You are delusional if you think so.

China sure acts in an imperialist manner in Tibet, parts of Kashmir, Xinjiang, perhaps Inner Mongolia and the SCS + has obvious designs on Taiwan. I think you could characterize their activities in Sri Lanka has imperialist overtones too.

Sinophobes spin every action of Beijing as "imperialistic" or "genocidal" or whatever the next buzzword is.

That doesn't make it true, it just drains those words of useful meaning.

Genocide denial isn't a great look, chief.

China is guilty of Uyghur genocide. They just depend on people engaging in wishful thinking or spaghetti logic to explain how reeducation camps and mass sterilization of a populace doesn't count.

> Lowering birthrates

This is a nice way of covering up enforced sterilization and contraception, which is absolutely genocide. Like, it's literally getting rid of a people, by making them physically incapable of reproducing: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...

> The state regularly subjects minority women to pregnancy checks, and forces intrauterine devices, sterilization and even abortion on hundreds of thousands, the interviews and data show. Even while the use of IUDs and sterilization has fallen nationwide, it is rising sharply in Xinjiang.

If it was just a matter of making IUD's or other contraceptives available, obviously that would be fine. But what's happening is forcing them across the Uyghurs, and that's genocide.

It's interesting that your argument for China's imperialism includes China governing three of their own provinces ("America sure acts in an imperialist manner in Alaska, Hawaii...") and the debunked Sri Lankan debt-trap story.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/ch...

The parent comment I'm responding to explicitly makes this point: "The United States operates an imperial arrangement within its continental territory"

The US is also not an empire.

Said by who? Americans, people under the american hegemony described in that comment?

A large network isn't imperialism. China's international projects certainly have some empire-like qualities; they probably do have imperial aspirations not too different in scope from the US's.

That may provide a framework to help you decide which empire you'd like to live under, if you get to influence the choice. But it's not particularly helpful in understanding the dynamic described in the quote imo, or a refutation of its premise that US-vs-china is not the most effective way to understand these systems.

Anyway though while we're on the subject, it's worth noting that in africa particularly, states & institutions are often choosing entanglement with china as an alternative to engaging with the US in similar ways. Would certainly be worthwhile to get some african opinions on china and US vis-à-vis empire.

The Belt and Road Initiative is China exerting power over weaker nations in Asia, Africa, and Europe. China's strategic investments in infrastructure and resources in these regions have allowed it to gain much control over their economies and political systems.

Additionally, China's military presence in the South China Sea and its territorial claims over disputed islands demonstrate imperialist aspirations

cool now do the US

To prove that they are both empires?

Yes. It's still the underdog though. But china is trying to build something to rival the US.