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Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by RedCondor on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:18AM (#35482472)
I don't think this is correct at all.

You throw in unsourced atrocity propaganda ("starved millions of their own people then imploded") which is like the U.S. abusing someone then asking them "why they keep punching themselves."

It's worth reading American imperial architects like Washington's "Wise Man" George Kennan in 1948:

>We have about 50% of the world’s wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v01p2/...

Or the "Mallory Memo":

>499. Memorandum From the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Mallory) to the Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Rubottom) [Washington, April 6, 1960]

SUBJECT: The Decline and Fall of Castro

Salient considerations respecting the life of the present Government of Cuba are:

The majority of Cubans support Castro (the lowest estimate I have seen is 50 percent). There is no effective political opposition. Fidel Castro and other members of the Cuban Government espouse or condone communist influence. Communist influence is pervading the Government and the body politic at an amazingly fast rate. Militant opposition to Castro from without Cuba would only serve his and the communist cause. The only foreseeable means of alienating internal support is through disenchantment and disaffection based on economic dissatisfaction and hardship. If the above are accepted or cannot be successfully countered, it follows that every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba. If such a policy is adopted, it should be the result of a positive decision which would call forth a line of action which, while as adroit and inconspicuous as possible, makes the greatest inroads in denying money and supplies to Cuba, to decrease monetary and real wages, to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1958-60v06...

It's not correct to pretend others just made errors or "had wrong systems" rather than that the U.S. sabotaged any rivals with infinite violence.

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by jimbob45 on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:38AM (#35482769)
You throw in unsourced atrocity propaganda ("starved millions of their own people then imploded") which is like the U.S. abusing someone then asking them "why they keep punching themselves."

Told myself I wouldn’t get baited by this thread but I guess Holodomor denial is my weak spot. The Holodomor isn’t “atrocity propaganda”. It was a factual event in history perpetrated purposefully by malicious actors.

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by Animatronio on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:49AM (#35482941)
Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by greedo on Friday April 07, 2023 @01:08PM (#35484069)
Both the USSR and China did a wonderful job with killing their own citizens during WW2 and afterwards. Holodomor, The Great Leap Forward, and even worse the Four Pests campaign (I'm a bird lover).

The idea that the PRC is some benevolent country striving to break free of the Evil Capitalist Dogs is out of bounds with facts.

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by infamouscow on Friday April 07, 2023 @12:43PM (#35483737)
Nation-states have an anarchistic relationship with one another. For any system to be successful it has to recognize there are other nation-states with competing interests. So I find this argument unconvincing. If it wasn't the US, it would be someone else.
Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by greedo on Friday April 07, 2023 @01:04PM (#35484021)
Kennan's comment is strongly linked to the outcome of WW2. The US was the beneficiary of the war in sheer economic terms. Europe was either destroyed or bankrupt. China was devastated by it's war that predated WW2 with Japan, and then faced a civil war. The USSR was devastated as well, and had put almost all its resources into its military.

It's important to recognize the roots of the US's dominance post war.

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by TulliusCicero on Friday April 07, 2023 @02:25PM (#35485065)
> You throw in unsourced atrocity propaganda ("starved millions of their own people then imploded")

Here's a source: https://holodomor.ca/resource/holodomor-basic-facts/

> The term Holodomor (death by hunger, in Ukrainian) refers to the starvation of millions of Ukrainians in 1932–33 as a result of Soviet policies. The Holodomor can be seen as the culmination of an assault by the Communist Party and Soviet state on the Ukrainian peasantry, who resisted Soviet policies. This assault occurred in the context of a campaign of intimidation and arrests of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers, artists, religious leaders, and political cadres, who were seen as a threat to Soviet ideological and state-building aspirations.

Or: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

> The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomor, IPA: [ɦolodoˈmɔr];[7] derived from морити голодом, moryty holodom, 'to kill by starvation'),[a][8][9][10] also known as the Terror-Famine[11][12][13] or the Great Famine,[14] was a human-made famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. The Holodomor was part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933 which affected the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union.[15]

> While scholars universally agree that the cause of the famine was human-made, whether the Holodomor constitutes a genocide remains in dispute.[16] Some historians conclude that the famine was planned and exacerbated by Joseph Stalin in order to eliminate a Ukrainian independence movement.[b][17] Others suggest that the famine arose because of rapid Soviet industrialisation and collectivization of agriculture.[18][19][20]