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Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by roenxi on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:08AM (#35482344)
As a counterpoint; the reason we have a US-dominated world empire is _every single competitor_ went mad and destroyed themselves. The Europeans reduced their empires to rubble, the Russians starved millions of their own people then imploded. The Chinese killed their own economy. India had a handicap from the British colonisation, but then decided that wasn't enough and also tried socialism. The Africans can't organise their way out of a paper bag.

By process of elimination, the world order was dominated by the US.

The US does have a world empire, but its core feature is they consistently haven't exhausted themselves on silly wars or socialist internal policies. If any other power tried policies that promoted their own prosperity they'd have an easy time of it. China dipped their toe into saving and accumulating wealth and look how they've gone. If they could just stick to sane policies for 50 years in a row we'd probably have room for a few great powers in the world.

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by jl6 on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:19AM (#35482485)
> is _every single competitor_ went mad and destroyed themselves

Alternatively, every single competitor matured and dismantled themselves.

(In pursuit of smaller but more sustainable societies).

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by dralley on Friday April 07, 2023 @01:38PM (#35484431)
Europeans didn't give up their empires because they matured, they gave them up because they lost the capacity to hold them themselves and the US was not keen to help them do so.
Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by RedCondor on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:18AM (#35482472)
I don't think this is correct at all.

You throw in unsourced atrocity propaganda ("starved millions of their own people then imploded") which is like the U.S. abusing someone then asking them "why they keep punching themselves."

It's worth reading American imperial architects like Washington's "Wise Man" George Kennan in 1948:

>We have about 50% of the world’s wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v01p2/...

Or the "Mallory Memo":

>499. Memorandum From the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Mallory) to the Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Rubottom) [Washington, April 6, 1960]

SUBJECT: The Decline and Fall of Castro

Salient considerations respecting the life of the present Government of Cuba are:

The majority of Cubans support Castro (the lowest estimate I have seen is 50 percent). There is no effective political opposition. Fidel Castro and other members of the Cuban Government espouse or condone communist influence. Communist influence is pervading the Government and the body politic at an amazingly fast rate. Militant opposition to Castro from without Cuba would only serve his and the communist cause. The only foreseeable means of alienating internal support is through disenchantment and disaffection based on economic dissatisfaction and hardship. If the above are accepted or cannot be successfully countered, it follows that every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba. If such a policy is adopted, it should be the result of a positive decision which would call forth a line of action which, while as adroit and inconspicuous as possible, makes the greatest inroads in denying money and supplies to Cuba, to decrease monetary and real wages, to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1958-60v06...

It's not correct to pretend others just made errors or "had wrong systems" rather than that the U.S. sabotaged any rivals with infinite violence.

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by jimbob45 on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:38AM (#35482769)
You throw in unsourced atrocity propaganda ("starved millions of their own people then imploded") which is like the U.S. abusing someone then asking them "why they keep punching themselves."

Told myself I wouldn’t get baited by this thread but I guess Holodomor denial is my weak spot. The Holodomor isn’t “atrocity propaganda”. It was a factual event in history perpetrated purposefully by malicious actors.

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by Animatronio on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:49AM (#35482941)
Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by greedo on Friday April 07, 2023 @01:08PM (#35484069)
Both the USSR and China did a wonderful job with killing their own citizens during WW2 and afterwards. Holodomor, The Great Leap Forward, and even worse the Four Pests campaign (I'm a bird lover).

The idea that the PRC is some benevolent country striving to break free of the Evil Capitalist Dogs is out of bounds with facts.

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by infamouscow on Friday April 07, 2023 @12:43PM (#35483737)
Nation-states have an anarchistic relationship with one another. For any system to be successful it has to recognize there are other nation-states with competing interests. So I find this argument unconvincing. If it wasn't the US, it would be someone else.
Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by greedo on Friday April 07, 2023 @01:04PM (#35484021)
Kennan's comment is strongly linked to the outcome of WW2. The US was the beneficiary of the war in sheer economic terms. Europe was either destroyed or bankrupt. China was devastated by it's war that predated WW2 with Japan, and then faced a civil war. The USSR was devastated as well, and had put almost all its resources into its military.

It's important to recognize the roots of the US's dominance post war.

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by TulliusCicero on Friday April 07, 2023 @02:25PM (#35485065)
> You throw in unsourced atrocity propaganda ("starved millions of their own people then imploded")

Here's a source: https://holodomor.ca/resource/holodomor-basic-facts/

> The term Holodomor (death by hunger, in Ukrainian) refers to the starvation of millions of Ukrainians in 1932–33 as a result of Soviet policies. The Holodomor can be seen as the culmination of an assault by the Communist Party and Soviet state on the Ukrainian peasantry, who resisted Soviet policies. This assault occurred in the context of a campaign of intimidation and arrests of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers, artists, religious leaders, and political cadres, who were seen as a threat to Soviet ideological and state-building aspirations.

Or: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

> The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomor, IPA: [ɦolodoˈmɔr];[7] derived from морити голодом, moryty holodom, 'to kill by starvation'),[a][8][9][10] also known as the Terror-Famine[11][12][13] or the Great Famine,[14] was a human-made famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. The Holodomor was part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933 which affected the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union.[15]

> While scholars universally agree that the cause of the famine was human-made, whether the Holodomor constitutes a genocide remains in dispute.[16] Some historians conclude that the famine was planned and exacerbated by Joseph Stalin in order to eliminate a Ukrainian independence movement.[b][17] Others suggest that the famine arose because of rapid Soviet industrialisation and collectivization of agriculture.[18][19][20]

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by Phelinofist on Friday April 07, 2023 @02:44PM (#35485344)
> The Africans can't organise their way out of a paper bag

Ah yes, because Africa was not deliberately destabilized since basically forever and still is

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by roenxi on Friday April 07, 2023 @06:04PM (#35487605)
If China was still using Maoist policies we'd be talking about how they were put in an impossible position by Japanese, Russian, Indian, US and British aggression. Instead, they have allowed businessmen to flourish and everyone is grudgingly accepting that they are a new great power. Surrounded by wealthy neighbours who came out of WWII in terrible shape and just kept working hard, saving and accumulating capital.

Compare and contrast to Zimbabwe. Inflation at ~80%! Still printing money and refusing to let the economy stabilise. It'd be funny except the policy decisions have consequences for real people. They have had some handicaps. But their biggest problem is a refusal to abandon failed local policies.

I'm sure there are some success stories in Africa that will eventually show them all the way. But the success and failure have been primarily a result of their own choices for a while now. Just because foreigners are trying to destabilise a country doesn't mean they can't adopt growth-based policies. If Asia can do it, Africa can.

And even with that the Chinese are quite authoritarian. If they would liberalise a bit more they'd probably speed past the US too. There are a lot of low policy bars to clear before blaming problems on foreigners.

Re:U.S. and China wage war beneath the waves – over internet... by Phelinofist on Friday April 07, 2023 @07:25PM (#35488429)
I don't think you can compare China to Africa. Just look at the borders of the different states of Africa - they come from a drawing board. That and countless CIA operations, colonization and century old hostility between different tribes. Vast rare earth resources, which are valuable for the West, make this an ongoing effort to exploit.