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Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by davesque on Thursday April 06, 2023 @04:42PM (#35474112)
I feel like the whole ChatGPT bubble has really highlighted what feel like some fundamental shortcomings in the worldview that is represented in tech. That is, there seems to be a winner take all dynamic baked into the tech world. Maybe this arises from the simple fact that tech places a lot of power in the hands of individuals. But there's an emergent downside to this which is that it makes those who were already much more powerful even more so. Because who is best suited to take advantage of all the power but those who were already perched up above everyone else and permitted to pick and choose their opportunities?

I've found it exceptionally hard to stay positive about all of this. It almost feels as though the advent of LLMs has shined light on a fundamental law of the universe that does not work out in the little person's favor. It's like survival of the fittest on steroids. Guys, what the heck are we doing??

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by JohnFen on Thursday April 06, 2023 @05:07PM (#35474466)
> there seems to be a winner take all dynamic baked into the tech world.

This has been a pathology in the computer/software industry for a very long time. It's never been actually true except in a couple of special cases, but the industry acts as if it is. That has led to all sorts of bizarre and undesirable things.

> Guys, what the heck are we doing??

I think we're playing with fire and, without extreme caution and careful consideration (which I'm not seeing much of), this could end very, very badly for both the industry and society.

I have always been optimistic about technology and society, but (perhaps like you), my optimism has largely evaporated over the last several weeks. I wish the future didn't look so dark. Perhaps, though, things will look less gloomy with time.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by weatherlite on Friday April 07, 2023 @05:35AM (#35479846)
What's your main concern with all of this?
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by JohnFen on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:11AM (#35482386)
People are perceiving (rightly or wrongly, I'm not debating that in this comment) that this software is powerful enough that it can replace people even in jobs that were always considered safe.

If that perception is accurate, it's really hard to see how this can lead to anywhere that isn't much worse for most people.

If that perception is not accurate, people will still be upset by what looks like an existential threat to them, and if there's economic disruption for any unrelated reason, they will blame AI.

Either way, I'm really struggling to see a good outcome from any of this. I'm not saying ChatGPT is bad, but I think the rollout of it has been done in a way that is incredibly insensitive, reckless and damaging.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by int_19h on Friday April 07, 2023 @05:05PM (#35486994)
> it's really hard to see how this can lead to anywhere that isn't much worse for most people.

It's very easy to see that, actually. Consider the problem statement again: economy is becoming more productive overall because we now have robots that can do some things that previously required people. This means that we can generate more total wealth for the same effort as before. That this translates to people being worse off, somehow, is a problem with the distribution of that generated wealth, not the ability to produce it. Even a sensible implementation of UBI could fix the most immediate problem, and I think we're looking at much bigger shifts in our economic system within the next couple decades.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by JohnFen on Friday April 07, 2023 @06:23PM (#35487816)
> That this translates to people being worse off, somehow, is a problem with the distribution of that generated wealth, not the ability to produce it.

Exactly so.

> Even a sensible implementation of UBI could fix the most immediate problem

Which is simply not in the cards. The people who have the wealth are absolutely not going to give it away, because wealth equals power and they want power.

So what is more likely to happen is that the very wealthy will become fewer in number, and much wealthier, and everyone else will become poorer (in absolute, not relative terms) due to the reduction in the amount of jobs available that pay a living wage.

> I think we're looking at much bigger shifts in our economic system within the next couple decades.

Perhaps so -- but you can't ignore the serious harm between now and then.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by int_19h on Friday April 07, 2023 @06:41PM (#35488005)
Many of the people who do have the wealth have been talking about UBI. Not out of the kindness of their heart, but because they understand that a world in which billions of people suddenly become "economically redundant" is also the world in which their mansions will burn, some quite possibly with their owners inside. Now, these guys mostly propose the "bare minimum" kind - effectively, just enough to prevent this scenario. But they can't argue for it without legitimizing the concept in general.

The bigger political problem in US specifically is just how hostile the public opinion is to anything that "stinks" of socialism. There's also the perception that AI is automating away "useless" white collar jobs, and not "real man's work". The right-wing intelligentsia who tries to sell UBI to their electorate is having a hard time getting past that, but I don't think it's insurmountable with the right approach, and it's also much less of an issue in most other countries. In any case, I think attitudes will change very quickly once more people outside of tech and art get first-hands experience with job loss, if not for themselves than for someone they know.

The harm between now and then is serious and real, yes. I just don't see any feasible way to prevent it through regulation, not to mention that it would face just as many political hurdles. We have already jumped; let's not waste time trying to flap our arms to see if that works, and try to arrange for a safe landing instead.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by JohnFen on Friday April 07, 2023 @06:53PM (#35488120)
> try to arrange for a safe landing instead.

That would be nice. I sincerely hope that we can swing that. I just don't see a realistic path for it. And almost everything that I've been hearing the enthusiasts say just makes everything seem more hopeless.

But I'm very much hoping that I'm wrong. At this point, hoping is the only thing I have the power to do.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by int_19h on Friday April 07, 2023 @09:35PM (#35489514)
One thing that I wish more people realized is that if this tech wave does push our societies into this degree of violence - and I believe that this is a distinct possibility - it won't be Altman's mansion that'll burn first. It'll be the houses of software engineers and other "high middle class" occupations in rich suburbs - simply because they are much closer, and don't have much security, so more accessible. Altman will have the time to get to his private jet off to New Zealand or wherever the current bunker is; the rest of us will suffer the immediate consequences. See also: 1917 Russian Revolution.

So, regardless of one's ethics and political philosophy, we have a very strong collective interest as an economic class to prevent this scenario. Most of us don't have any more direct political power than your average voter, but we can throw more money at the politicians. In my experience, this doesn't help one bit with "wedge issues", but this all is so new that nobody has managed to weaponize it across political lines just yet.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by shadowpho on Thursday April 06, 2023 @05:21PM (#35474655)
> That is, there seems to be a winner take all dynamic baked into the tech world.

In tech world the cost for R&D/design/code is generally much larger then continuous code. That means that it's extremely expensive to have 1 user, but really cheap to have 1M users.

Thus winner-takes-all makes sense, as company who is ahead can continue developing/designing at a cheaper price as opposed to company with no users.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by hobo_in_library on Thursday April 06, 2023 @05:26PM (#35474719)
Pre-tech, the winner take all dynamic was prevented by physics:

- Customers were only willing to walk so far to go to a bakery

- A store could only stock so many varieties on it's shelves

Now, the cost of distributing goods across the globe, and the incremental cost of creating new goods has shrunk to virtually zero for digital goods, combined with people's general hesitance to the friction of switching providers, creates a the natural "winner take all" effect

The places where you'll see this NOT happening are areas where those costs are still significant for some reason.

Examples:

- Different ride sharing services are popular in different countries, many of them local ones, since foreign companies had a harder time getting distribution started.

- Legal regulations also have been hindering the spread of payment companies across country-level borders

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by api on Thursday April 06, 2023 @11:30PM (#35477709)
> the friction of switching providers

Without this the gravity is much less powerful. Seems like where to focus if you want to empower people against the winner take all monopoly effect.

Areas where switching costs are low are areas where you have standard APIs and where your data resides locally, is easy to move, or are not data intensive at all.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by RHSman2 on Thursday April 06, 2023 @04:54PM (#35474272)
Human nature, not just tech
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by davesque on Thursday April 06, 2023 @05:00PM (#35474364)
Is it though? I remember feeling much more positive about society roughly 20 years ago.
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by satvikpendem on Thursday April 06, 2023 @11:52PM (#35477854)
You were also twenty years younger, surely youthful naïveté plays a role in how you felt about society. And regardless, your feeling about society doesn't necessarily correspond to how society actually is.
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by RHSman2 on Friday April 07, 2023 @06:52AM (#35480258)
20 years ago was the Golden Years. We thought it was just like that but no. It isn’t.
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by WanderPanda on Thursday April 06, 2023 @09:34PM (#35476973)
This is literally threatening the winner (Google) taking it all forever. Some of these innovations are winner take all until they aren't anymore. The cycle seems to be 1 to 2 decades. The profits during that cycle are probably fair on average given the risk necessary to make the tech ready for wide-spread usage
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by UncleOxidant on Thursday April 06, 2023 @10:24PM (#35477268)
> This is literally threatening the winner (Google) taking it all forever

Sure, but look who is over there in the corner next to OpenAI: Microsoft with their $10B stake. The company that was the winner prior to Google being a winner.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by strikelaserclaw on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:05AM (#35482304)
Well it seems like the biggest winner over google is Microsoft?
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by sj8822 on Thursday April 06, 2023 @09:35PM (#35476978)
At some point, I became disenchanted with tech and working as a software engineer when I realized that tech doesn't ethically fit into our primitive economic organization right now. It's made me feel bad about myself and the career path I've chosen.

Basically, with tech, you can build a product with a very limited amount of people and resources with a potentially infinite customer base. And this means that this product can suck up money from the whole world and redirect it into the hands of very few. At its essence, this is the case. With tech, this phenomena is exacerbated to the extreme compared to other industries where more physical resources and labor are required to scale production and distribution of the product, which means more wealth getting spread.

At its core, tech has the potential to exacerbate wealth inequality in mind-boggling proportions.

Our current economic system is not made for tech.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by xyzzy4747 on Thursday April 06, 2023 @09:53PM (#35477082)
I think ultimately tech will result in humans being like the rest of animals - completely unable to participate in the economy. This will only start to happen once AGI is reached though which might only be a decade away or less.
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by jordwest on Thursday April 06, 2023 @10:19PM (#35477237)
I think you're right, we're going to need to completely rethink our economy to decouple the idea of human effort (Unfortunately I can't see how that's going to happen without everything first falling apart).

A single barrel of oil is estimated to replace about 5-10 years of a human's effort in pure energy terms. Our human ability in physical terms was already significantly obsoleted by that.

AI feels like the discovery of cheap oil but for mental effort.

At the same time, oil is getting more and more expensive and energy intensive to drill (and costly to the environment to use).

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by SkyPuncher on Thursday April 06, 2023 @11:17PM (#35477621)
I suspect there will be essentially three different economies - Digital Human-experiences, and hybrid.

AGI will focus primarily on problems that can be mostly solved within digital worlds where it can cycle incredibly fast. Building software, finance, paperwork, etc, etc It will eventually evolve to design, control, and operate physical systems, but will need humans to intervene and fix systems (hybrid).

The human economy will built on experiences that are explicitly, and intentionally void of computers. Restaurants, guided tours, exploration, etc, etc.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by xyzzy4747 on Thursday April 06, 2023 @11:47PM (#35477816)
Yes I could see that happening, assuming the AIs don’t manage to outwit humans and subvert power and take over.

However, even if humans remain dominant (political power-wise), eventually there will probably be fake humans/cyborgs, like Cylons in Battle Star Galactica, that can do everything humans can but better. And also provide human-level experiences. Impossible to know how long this will take though.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by maxilevi on Thursday April 06, 2023 @10:15PM (#35477213)
But if people are paying for the product then they value it more than the money right?

Tech might bring more inequality, but what is the problem with it if it substantially increases everyones standard of living?

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by PeterisP on Thursday April 06, 2023 @10:36PM (#35477336)
If something makes everything take half as much effort but removes your ability to earn an income (or slashes it more than twice) then it decreases your standard of living despite substantially increasing it for many others.
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by maxilevi on Thursday April 06, 2023 @10:42PM (#35477378)
You are assuming everything else stays static. Maybe if this happens, the ability to do everything in as half as much time will increase competition in a lot of areas bringing prices down and increasing your purchasing power.
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by MVissers on Thursday April 06, 2023 @11:52PM (#35477851)
That’s not what’s happening in the US. Too much concentration of wealth (not just tech), leading to almost 3rd world country health outcomes, education levels plummeting and unaffordability to live.

Will backfire at one point if it continues.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by maxilevi on Friday April 07, 2023 @12:40AM (#35478091)
I would argue that is caused by regulatory capture and government interference (e.g. zoning laws) and not technological progress
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by sdenton4 on Friday April 07, 2023 @02:20AM (#35478681)
Despite all these zoning laws there are tent encampments everywhere...
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by maxilevi on Friday April 07, 2023 @09:01AM (#35481137)
That is exactly what I meant.
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by sj8822 on Friday April 07, 2023 @03:24AM (#35479069)
Hi Maxilevi, regarding some of your points:

"Tech might bring more inequality, but what is the problem with it if it substantially increases everyones standard of living?"

The problem is that ultimately, wealth inequality decreases the standard of living for most people. There are a finite amount of resources. This world we live in is finite. And these resources are being concentrated at the top, in the hands of a few, which leads to less and less of these finite resources being available for more and more people. Although economics is of course complex to some degree, don't lose sight of this very simple mechanism because it is a reality.

"I would argue that is caused by regulatory capture and government interference (e.g. zoning laws) and not technological progress"

If by regulatory capture, you are referring to regulatory corruption influenced by lobbying, then yes, of course that is increasing wealth inequality, and thus decreasing standard of living. Regarding government interference - it's the exact opposite of what you say - proper government interference is what we need. Under current conditions our economic system is not distributing wealth properly. That much is evident and easy to see. And there will be worse living conditions under more stark wealth inequality as opposed to a more even distribution of resources. As mentioned, this world we live in is finite. If they are syphoned to the hands of very few individuals, this leaves less of these finite resources for the rest of human beings. And as mentioned, tech has contributed to accelerating this, for the reasons mentioned in my above post.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by TheMode on Thursday April 06, 2023 @11:20PM (#35477638)
I do not believe that standard of living should be compared in a vacuum. Since I assume that this is what you are referring to, I am firmly convinced that happiness is relative.

What this means is that improving the standard of living of the average person by 5% while improving it by 50% for a smaller population will hurt more than it helps.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by maxilevi on Friday April 07, 2023 @12:43AM (#35478114)
Why would it hurt?
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by MattPalmer1086 on Friday April 07, 2023 @03:20AM (#35479043)
There is evidence that people do worse on average across a variety of metrics in more unequal societies.

Naturally this is disputed by those on the right and implicitly believed by those on the left.

See the book "The Spirit Level" and subsequent discussions around that for more info.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by TheMode on Friday April 07, 2023 @05:28AM (#35479813)
Ignoring study, that would be a more graphic example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg

Or historically, if this wasn't true we would be the happiest humans to ever live on earth. Doesn't seem to be true on any possible metric.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by quickthrower2 on Friday April 07, 2023 @04:04AM (#35479348)
Increased standards if living, also know as trappings.

You need a phone or computer these days to participate in society, to earn a living and so on and you buy these and further services from big tech.

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by rntz on Friday April 07, 2023 @05:45AM (#35479892)
Corporations make profits if their products are worth it to people, true. But in a sufficiently unequal world, what's "worth it" to a rich person matters more in the market than what's "worth it" to a poor person - the rich command more money than the poor. If the money made by corporations accrues only to a few, we get a positive feedback cycle of inequality: corporations cater to the market; the market caters to rich people; and in a highly concentrated market, only a few people get rich off of this. The result is a poor underclass. Society as a whole gets richer, perhaps, but very unevenly. Besides causing political instability, this is also an inefficient allocation of resources - an additional $1000 improves a poor person's life more than it does a rich person's.
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by rlt on Friday April 07, 2023 @05:56AM (#35479945)
> you can build a product with a very limited amount of people and resources

If you can do it with limited resources, then so can anyone else.

(This is an oversimplification, of course)

Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by strikelaserclaw on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:03AM (#35482286)
this is not so straight forward, i've been using google for ten years even though it has been progressively getting worse. Inertia is a hell of a thing. Given a lot of choices, people generally choose one or two and stick to them (these choices mostly being determined by things like first movers advantage, good marketing, etc...)
Re:Behind the curtain: what it feels like to work in AI righ... by sebmellen on Thursday April 06, 2023 @11:05PM (#35477530)
This is nowhere near new: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect

"To those who have everything, more will be given, and from those who have nothing, everything will be taken."