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Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by epicureanideal on Saturday April 01, 2023 @10:52PM (#35406674)
So in other words, if we want stable marriages, we should not financially devastate men in divorce and give their wives cash and prizes and accolades for breaking up their families and pushing fathers out of their kids' lives. Got it. Most of us knew this already but it's nice to have a study to confirm it.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by geewee on Sunday April 02, 2023 @02:31AM (#35407776)
This seems like an oddly woman-hostile take that's only very tangentially related to the study.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by leobg on Sunday April 02, 2023 @02:49AM (#35407849)
You could say woman-hostile. You could also say victim mentality.

He who is being left usually has walked away first.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by leobg on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:19AM (#35408042)
Down-vote and move on. That’s exactly what you’re blaming women for, isn’t it?
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by epicureanideal on Sunday April 02, 2023 @02:51AM (#35407865)
It’s not intended to be woman-hostile at all. It’s opposed to a specific system of incentives that encourages immoral and socially destructive behavior. It just happens to be that the system of incentives is itself designed to operate unequally and so it affects the participants in families differently.

If a similar system of incentives were created that strongly benefitted fathers in ways that fathers would respond to, we would probably see similar dysfunctional behavior from fathers.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by anonymouskimmer on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:24AM (#35408072)
It seems women-hostile because:

1) It doesn't seem to follow from the paper. Which states that the wealthier partner tends to retain most of the married wealth.

> While the richer spouse redistributes some assets to the poorer spouse in the typical settlement, the amount of redistribution is smaller than the amount required to ensure an equal split of the assets. This empirical finding suggests that the <lottery winning> spouses in our samples may anticipate retaining a larger share of the prize money in the event of divorce

2) If the only thing keeping a marriage together is the lack of wealth necessary for one party (the woman) to adequately survive after the divorce, then this is not a stable marriage.

You seem to have come into this with an already formed opinion. Which is fine, but the opinion seems to be about circumstances not addressed by this study.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by leobg on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:29AM (#35408109)
This is silly. If your marriage is falling apart, you can’t wait for “the incentive system” to be changed. By whom, anyway? Also, many women will not leave the father of their children just for financial incentives. If there is the case, you gotta ask yourself what your marriage was based on in the first place. I agree that social pressure does play a role. For instance, I just saw a New York Times article that said “My husband doesn’t want sex anymore, do I divorce him?“. I agree with you that that is a disgusting framework of entitlement and replacability. But: If such cultural messages have more influence in your wife’s behavior than you, you gotta ask yourself… If you choose to believe what you just said, you’re gonna be a divorced Joe Rogan subscribing expat in Thailand pretty soon.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by watwut on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:39AM (#35408451)
I have seen similar advice to men too. Dead bedroom in a long term destroys marriages ir is a sign of an issue in marriage.

Intimacy matters to people.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by leobg on Sunday April 02, 2023 @06:53AM (#35409212)
Intimacy, like love, isn’t something you get. It’s something you do. Getting the mental model wrong about this is a guarantee for disappointment. And for silly drama triangle thinking in terms of victim, perpetrator and savior (which does make for good clickbait).
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by gpvos on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:14AM (#35408321)
I don't know of any empirical data supporting your assertions, they all seem rather speculative.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by WrtCdEvrydy on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:01AM (#35407922)
> like an oddly woman-hostile take

Noone cared about alimony until women started having to pay and now there's suddenly a movement to remove it.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by anonymouskimmer on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:26AM (#35408093)
If anyone thinks there's "suddenly" a social movement, it's likely that they just didn't notice that it has been happening for a long time.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by anonymouskimmer on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:18AM (#35408032)
Here are first-take conclusions I draw from the article:

> The only discernible effect on female winners is that wealth increases their short-run (but not long-run) divorce risk.

Women still divorce their sucky husbands. It just takes longer. This could result in fewer kids, or it could result in kids whose homes are broken during later childhood or adolescence.

Reading the actual paper, this is, in fact, the conclusion the authors come to: "In contrast, the only exception to the pattern of null results for female winners is that lottery wealth almost doubles their short-run probability of divorce. One interpretation of the absence of a discernible long-run increase in divorce risk among these women is that wealth accelerates the dissolution of marriages that were already underway."

> We also report results which suggest that when married men win the lottery, the windfall has a tendency to stabilize their existing marriages

Winning a lottery helps men feel secure enough that they aren't as sucky to their spouse.

> lottery wins cause the largest increase in marriage rates and the biggest reduction in divorce rates among unmarried men with low incomes.

So if you want stable marriages that have children the best thing to do is make people wealthier, especially those of lower income. Make men wealthier and they'll get married more and have more children. Make women wealthier and the men they stick with will be ones they like sticking with. I can't see this latter leading to fewer children, on average. I'd expect it would lead to more.

Where'd you get your idea from?

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by watwut on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:37AM (#35408437)
Afaik financial worries are a big reason why some women stay with abusive partners. This is gendered - many sub groups expect men to be breadwinner and women to be primary caregiver. So women are more likely to have no income for period of time or have child duties that interfere with work.

Contrary what OP wrote, typical result is that women becomes poorer after divorce and men had more money. (And no, alimony are nit given out like candies).

It is not only reason, but practically not having money and risking poverty or homelessness means you need to plan divorce very carefully.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by gnull on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:57AM (#35408547)
> sucky husbands

It's become the standard in some companies to bitch about men and presume they're suckers and abusers is any situation that involves both sexes. Let's keep in mind that it's not science saying this, but woke ideology.

> the best thing to do is make people wealthier

Far-fetched. Winning a lottery makes you much wealthier relative to other people, it puts you in maybe 10-20% richest people of your country. You can't fit everyone in those 20%.

Look at something like Uzbekistan. Country is miserably poor compared to Sweden and they still reproduce like they win lotteries all the time.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by ownagefool on Sunday April 02, 2023 @05:15AM (#35408647)
There's also a bunch of womens groups where all men are the enemy.

One would hope these are fringe groups, but as an example my wife is on a few that bridge into breastfeeding groups, where the women actively malign their husbands who provide their living, and do most household chores, but are still considered inept.

Even in the seemingly equal marriage, it would seem the battle for equality rages on.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by v-erne on Sunday April 02, 2023 @06:10AM (#35408984)
>> the battle for equality rages on

Lets call it for what it really is - battle for power and "freedom" to dominante others (those being husbands, wifes, coworkers - other humans in general). There seems to exists this general urge in some to search by all means necessary to make others an extension of their minds and not free and equal human beings.

Just my 2 cents of intuition acquired by observing some members of my closest family :(

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by anonymouskimmer on Sunday April 02, 2023 @01:29PM (#35412948)
"Sucky" relative to whatever it is the woman (who divorces him) wants.

> Winning a lottery makes you much wealthier relative to other people, it puts you in maybe 10-20% richest people of your country. You can't fit everyone in those 20%.

The average lottery winnings this paper is looking at is equal to ~$140,000 USD. According to wikipedia, Credit Suisse says the median net worth of individuals in Sweden is $95k USD. And the paper says the wealth effect on Swedish males is greatest among unmarried men with low incomes.

This is a one-off gain. It is not the continuous gain of a high-paying job. So this lottery win can provide immediate stability and opportunity, but it cannot, in itself, provide longevity of income gains.

You are making the claim that gains relative to population are most important. While I can see this as being important in supply-limited countries, I am not sure that Sweden is such a country.

> Country is miserably poor compared to Sweden and they still reproduce like they win lotteries all the time.

Which is why you control for experimental factors. If you want to see what factors boost marriage rates, marriage stability, and reproduction in Uzbekistan, you want to study Uzbekistan. This study was about Sweden.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by maest on Sunday April 02, 2023 @05:01AM (#35408569)
> One interpretation of the absence of a discernible long-run increase in divorce risk among these women is that wealth accelerates the dissolution of marriages that were already underway.

If you're pulling in divorces from the future, shouldn't the long term rate go down? Sounds like the total divorce rate goes up.

> sucky husbands

That's odd framing.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by anonymouskimmer on Sunday April 02, 2023 @01:16PM (#35412786)
> Sounds like the total divorce rate goes up.

> > the absence of a discernible long-run increase in divorce risk among these women

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by maest on Sunday April 02, 2023 @11:34PM (#35418261)
> > Sounds like the total divorce rate goes up.

> > > the absence of a discernible long-run increase in divorce risk among these women

> If you're pulling in divorces from the future, shouldn't the long term rate go down?

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by anonymouskimmer on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:08AM (#35419628)
The long-term rate appears to be level. This rate is not divorces per year, but divorces per person (or married couple). A level long-term rate with an increased short-term rate means, as said in the paper, that divorces-already-in-planning are just sped up.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by maest on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:24AM (#35419742)
If it's true that divorces are being brought forward this means that couples who remain together after the e.g. 1 year mark are stronger, thus you'd expect the long term rate to go down.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by anonymouskimmer on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:21PM (#35433344)
I don't understand why that would be the case. With a long-term rate staying stable, either a couple is going to break up, or they're not. Pushing forward the breakups would not alter the long-term rate, just as pushing backward the breakups (as long as they're still within the window observed by the study) doesn't lower the long-term rate.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by anonymouskimmer on Sunday April 02, 2023 @01:44PM (#35413113)
> That's odd framing.

If it was the men who were, on average, disproportionately divorcing their wives the framing could be reversed. As divorce has costs, the act of divorcing someone indicates that they are worse as a spouse than the alternative.

I had remembered reading that women tend to be less happy in marriages than men, but this appears to be wrong. Still:

> happiness increases when low-quality marriages dissolve—again, that’s true for both men and women.

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/is_marriage_re...

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by maest on Sunday April 02, 2023 @11:37PM (#35418275)
Divorce can be initiated by either party and the wording in the abstract ("divorce-risk") suggests they're looking at whether divorce happens, regardless of who initiated it. (I can't access the main paper, to verify what they're actually measuring)
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by anonymouskimmer on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:07AM (#35419620)
The site allows three free downloads, have you reached your limit?
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by maest on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:16AM (#35419685)
The machine I am on is blocking the download - could be my adblock rule or could be an admin setting, haven't checked.

However, that is besides the point? I find your question in very poor taste and not conducive to discussing the article.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by anonymouskimmer on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:18PM (#35433319)
It wasn't meant in poor taste. It was meant to be helpful.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by tennien on Saturday April 08, 2023 @09:03PM (#35499204)
“Men still divorce their sucky wives” is a phrase you’d be comfortable with? I’m not.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by whatever1 on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:52AM (#35408223)
Alternative interpretation: Many women tolerate abusive relationships because they do not have the means to financially support themselves and their kids. Winning the lottery is a way out.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by RajT88 on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:19AM (#35408348)
Probably a factor.

Another is that some men are uncomfortable with a wealthier partner. I know a few like this who say it plainly, but it showed up recently in "Crazy Rich Asians" with the tech CEO husband.

Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by glogla on Sunday April 02, 2023 @05:18AM (#35408664)
I think research actually show this is the other way around - very little women are ok with marrying less wealthy me, while for men it is common (e.g. male doctor might marry a female nurse but it will rarely happen the other way around).
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by GrigoriyMikh on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:21AM (#35408359)
I don't understand why people, on, supposedly, intellectual resource like HN, are offended when people state that women attracted to success(which can be measured in a multiple things, but right now, in the most places it's money). Keep dialogue constructive, things are like they are.
Re:The effects of wealth on (Swedish) marriage and fertility by watwut on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:30AM (#35408400)
I think that you are simply lying about the financial devastation divorce has on men and women. Obviously the material split differs between countries, but I literally no country I actually looked at what you wrote was actually true.