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Re:Ghoti by DiscourseFan on Sunday March 26, 2023 @12:50PM (#35316565)
To the contrary of most people, I think that English spelling is actually excellent because the spelling tells you less about actual phonology than etymology, and from there you can derive the pronunciation, thus the script is able to accomodate the accurate representations (phonologically) of every word from every language. There is no other language where people care about the correct pronunciation of words, because in most other languages the realm of possibility for the representation of sounds is extremely limited (take, for example, Hindi, with its supposedly phonetic script). Whereas Roman script can represent the accurate pronunciation of every word in Hindi, the Devanagari cannot even come close to representing all English words, not even all words written in Roman--which is probably why Roman script is becoming a dominant writing system in South Asia.
Re:Ghoti by tines on Sunday March 26, 2023 @12:58PM (#35316669)
> Whereas Roman script can represent the accurate pronunciation of every word in Hindi

Isn't this only true if you already know how Hindi specifically is supposed to be pronounced? I don't think you could show someone a romanized Hindi text and expect them to even come close to an accurate pronunciation. For example, doesn't Hindi have like six ways of making the English "D" sound?

Same thing for e.g. Chinese, you can't represent tones with unaugmented Roman characters.

Re:Ghoti by karashi on Sunday March 26, 2023 @07:17PM (#35320779)
> Same thing for e.g. Chinese, you can't represent tones with unaugmented Roman characters.

Interestingly this hasn’t stopped people from trying. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwoyeu_Romatzyh

Re:Ghoti by DiscourseFan on Sunday March 26, 2023 @08:30PM (#35321357)
I was going to add a section about how the Hanzi script is the only other script which is actually able to carry information that Roman can't, which is why Roman script dominates everywhere but China and will probably become the default system of writing everywhere in the world aside from China. You can disagree w/ me, but if it was so awkward to use then you couldn't force people to adopt it on mass, the fact is that its so versatile that it really can be adapted to nearly any language.
Re:Ghoti by arketyp on Sunday March 26, 2023 @01:34PM (#35317105)
I don't know enough about the second part, but I think your point about etymology is good. Languages have always and will always drift (although probably less so ever since text started influencing our pronunciation). Orthography soon becomes dated. At least with the original spelling you can trace it back to some logic that made more sense. Also, getting a sense of the etymology is instructive in it's own right.
Re:Ghoti by croes on Sunday March 26, 2023 @12:58PM (#35316660)
How would you pronounce "read"?

As read or read?

Re:Ghoti by GoatOfAplomb on Sunday March 26, 2023 @01:20PM (#35316937)
Read, obviously.
Re:Ghoti by illiarian on Sunday March 26, 2023 @01:58PM (#35317393)
I always read `ea` in `read` as in `lead`, it's easy to memorise

:-)

Re:Ghoti by anonymousiam on Sunday March 26, 2023 @03:48PM (#35318770)
How do you pronounce the name of the town Reading, PA?

https://www.howtopronounce.com/reading-pennsylvania-2

Re:Ghoti by NeoTar on Sunday March 26, 2023 @06:21PM (#35320263)
In the town of Reading in the UK there was at least one ‘Reading Book Shop’ to ensure it made sense in either of the possible common pronunciations
Re:Ghoti by Symbiote on Sunday March 26, 2023 @06:29PM (#35320342)
Now the common American mis-pronunciation of Reading in England makes no sense. It's the same!
Re:Ghoti by blep_ on Sunday March 26, 2023 @08:20PM (#35321273)
Most Americans have never heard of Reading, PA.
Re:Ghoti by anonymousiam on Monday March 27, 2023 @06:33PM (#35333718)
Re:Ghoti by cycomanic on Sunday March 26, 2023 @02:17PM (#35317608)
Similarly: the tear through my a Achilles tendon brought a tear to my eyes.
Re:Ghoti by euroderf on Monday March 27, 2023 @07:18AM (#35325236)
Is wound the past tense of wind, or did you get a wound from the wind ?
Re:Ghoti by euroderf on Monday March 27, 2023 @07:18AM (#35325241)
If the pronunciations came easily and automatically, you might already be a native speaker !
Re:Ghoti by aidenn0 on Sunday March 26, 2023 @01:46PM (#35317240)
This isn't always true; see e.g. rain versus reign.
Re:Ghoti by illiarian on Sunday March 26, 2023 @02:03PM (#35317454)
> because in most other languages the realm of possibility for the representation of sounds is extremely limited

What.

Most other languages do not shy away from having more ways of presenting sounds native to that language than English.

There are 24 consonant and 25 vowel phonemes in Received Pronunciation alone. All inadequately represented by just 22 letters.

Re:Ghoti by DiscourseFan on Sunday March 26, 2023 @08:32PM (#35321370)
No, as the "Ghoti" examples shows, contextual rules actually create infinite possibilities of phonological representations in the English script which is only exceeded by the IPA itself, since there are some edge cases, like "read" and "tear", where there is some confusion that wouldn't be clarified otherwise.
Re:Ghoti by illiarian on Monday March 27, 2023 @02:40AM (#35323566)
The Ghoti example shows just how poor English is at presenting sounds, relying on bizarre letter combinations and context. And it still cannot properly represent the large variety of sounds that exist in it, even if it reuses the same combination of letters for completely different sounds.
Re:Ghoti by DiscourseFan on Monday March 27, 2023 @06:48AM (#35325039)
I don't know why being able to represent a great number of sounds with a relatively small set of characters is a bad thing, if English had to have separate signs for every single sound in the language, even if we didn't count loanwords, that would still be about 50 or 60 characters. And with it, well, why don't we just adopt the syllabary of the Japanese, which can almost never accurately represent loan-words phonetically. To my point, there is not a single script, aside from the IPA, that can represent more sounds than Roman script in English, because there is no direct correspondence between spelling and sound value.
Re:Ghoti by illiarian on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:02AM (#35327604)
> I don't know why being able to represent a great number of sounds with a relatively small set of characters is a bad thing

1. I didn't say it was a bad thing

2. English actually can't represent a grwat number of sounds using a small set: there are many, many sounds in English that are not actually represented by its set of letters. The most common of them, shwa, isn't in any shape, way or form represented by English language. It's a mess of different letter combinations in different contexts, none of which adequately express the sound.

To quote Wikipedia: "In English, schwa is the most common vowel sound". And yet, there's literally no way to represent the most common vowel sound in English. Instead, it's 6 different ways that heavily depend on context, using letters that have no relation to the sound to begin with.

3. You claimed that "in other languages the realm of possibility for the representation of sounds is extremely limited" which is, of course, untrue.

Re:Ghoti by DiscourseFan on Monday March 27, 2023 @05:07PM (#35332641)
>"In English, schwa is the most common vowel sound". And yet, there's literally no way to represent the most common vowel sound in English. Instead, it's 6 different ways that heavily depend on context, using letters that have no relation to the sound to begin with.

I watched a video about this recently I found fascinating, I'll link to it below, but to summarize: the schwa isn't a letter because it occurs only in certain stress positions of a word, which changes depending on the surrounding words. But notice when you "talk slowly", that is, fixate on each and every word, you actually don't pronounce the shwa very often, if at all.

Couldn't find the video but it turns out there are a million on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp_WJAQ9fus

Re:Ghoti by illiarian on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:26PM (#35346492)
> I'll link to it below, but to summarize: the schwa isn't a letter because

Doesn't matter. You claimed English is so much better at representing sounds than other languages. And yet, it cannot represent the most common one. And of course, shwa is just one of them. As I mentioned before, English has significantly more sounds than letters, and of course cannot represent most of them even if those exist when you "soeak slowly".

More over, its so poor in expressing these sounds that it re-uses and repurposes completely different letter combinations for the same sound. Or the same letter for completely different sounds.

Because of course get/gist and use/you and fashion/mission/faction show us not the poor expressiveness of the language but how wonderfully rich it is in representing the different sounds.

Re:Ghoti by cycomanic on Sunday March 26, 2023 @02:20PM (#35317640)
So you can tell me the etymology of tear (liquid from your eyes) and tear (like a ripped paper) from the spelling?
Re:Ghoti by jamincan on Sunday March 26, 2023 @03:01PM (#35318158)
English is way too irregular for this to work. Good examples are reign vs. sovereign and isle vs. island. The etymologies aren't linked and the modern spellings are basically due to scholars presuming the etymologies are linked and adjusting their spelling to reflect that.
Re:Ghoti by DiscourseFan on Sunday March 26, 2023 @08:40PM (#35321440)
>reign vs. sovereign

this is actually explained by something called the Indo-European ablaut, or as the Indians who original came up with this call it, Guna and Vrddhi. Basically, there is a set of vowel grades in the IE languages: a -> (long) a -> (long) a; i -> e -> ai; u -> o -> au; (vowel) r -> ar -> (long) ar. The reason for the ablaut changes are fairly complex, but notice how in your example reign has the "e" as in pain, whereas "sovreign" has the "i" as in "bit", reign is actually the "guna" or first grade of the ablaut. English spelling doesn't generally represent these changes, nor does it have to, because people are aware of the sequence without knowing it, and those sound changes do not sound strange or out of place for them.

>scholars presuming the etymologies are linked and adjusting their spelling to reflect that

English actually has no official spelling for any words, its just that the King James bible was the first widely distributed printed book that people were able to read in the English speaking world, so people adopted the spellings for words in that book. Its quite arbitrary, which makes the elegance of the spelling system even better--the fact that no one got involved meant that we were able to create this beautifully complex system that could represent nearly an infinite number of sounds, because nobody tried to "standardize" and phoneticize English spelling.

Re:Ghoti by tragomaskhalos on Monday March 27, 2023 @10:37AM (#35327225)
This brings us to Sanskrit, which holds as its highest virtue the strict correspondence of spelling to sound, much to the dismay of learners who must at an early stage tackle the complex sandhi rules that enforce this.
Re:Ghoti by DiscourseFan on Monday March 27, 2023 @05:00PM (#35332519)
The irony there is that Sandhi seemingly developed later, early Vedic Hymns, like Ancient Greek texts, have very relatively few external sandhi operations.