News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by gruez on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @09:55AM (#35261011)
>The problem is too much debt, full stop. The fair way to address this is a modern debt jubilee: everyone gets the same nominal payout, debtors must use the payout to pay off debt, non-debtors may keep the money and do what they please with it.

Doesn't this fuck over savers who have their money parked in fixed income securities, while giving a huge boon to anyone owning equity in indebted companies? On a comparative basis, it also hugely benefits people in their late twenties/thirties who were able to take out massive loans (ie. mortgage) while not doing much for everyone else.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by recursivedoubts on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:02AM (#35261112)
Individuals (not corporations) get the same payout, rich, poor, everyone. If you don't have debt, you get that money free and clear.

It does dig younger people out of crushing debt, yes. That's the point: they can start a life without exponentially increasing debt grinding them to dust. This lets them participate in the wealth of the nation and incentivizes them to work and build families, thus producing more real wealth, rather than checking out and making just enough to pay the interest and monthly subscriptions.

There is no way out of this that doesn't involve helping young people throw off the yoke of crushing usury. A modern debt jubilee is the fairest way to do that: it rewards savers to an extent with free and clear money while paying off the debt of debtors.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by aqme28 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:12AM (#35261267)
So debt has nothing to do with it, it’s a one-time universal payout?
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by recursivedoubts on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:16AM (#35261341)
Yes. Everyone gets the payment.

The catch is that debtors must use the payment to extinguish their debt. Non-debtors get the money free and clear.

This is as fair a mechanic as I have ever heard for a debt jubilee. Steve Keen is a genius.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by CamelCaseName on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:18AM (#35261387)
This is simply a wealth transfer to institutions who lent money at low rates prior to the rate increases.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by recursivedoubts on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:31AM (#35261598)
It is not simply that, although it does ensure that the money that those institutions lent is paid back, rather than defaulted on. But let's be honest: what's really going to happen in the case of defaults is that the banks will seize the real underlying assets and sell them at fire-sale prices to other rich people.

The important part is that the borrower is now out from under exponential debt and can get on with their lives, and total debt in the economy is brought down to a sustainable level. Non-debtors get something too: free and clear cash.

Is it perfect? No, of course not. Nothing this simple could be perfectly fair. But it is simple, hard to game, addresses the core problem (too much debt) and is probably as fair as it will get, practically.

Certainly the elites would scream bloody murder if someone important legitimately proposed it. Keen has been ignored and mocked for years. That's evidence enough for me.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by shjake on Thursday March 23, 2023 @01:24PM (#35278131)
It also impossible to enforce.

And is basically equivalent to “why don’t we just print more money and give it everyone?”.

And anyway a terrible idea.. why do you want to penalize people who have low interest rate mortgages for instance? Anything they’d gain would be offset by inflation…

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by lief79 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:33AM (#35261647)
Good point ... paying down my mortgage faster is a fairly poor use of the funds. However, if it can be used for regular payments or prepayments over a period of time, it's not a bad deal.

I'd hope they'd also make exceptions for any loans under the current rate of inflation, but good luck getting that passed. Having to immediately pay off a 0% loan (if anyone still offers those) clearly is far from the optimal use of the money.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by recursivedoubts on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:46AM (#35261837)
People will be incentivized (and possibly required) to pay off high-interest debt first, which is the right thing.

Beyond that, a modern debt jubilee isn't about you optimizing your individual financial situation.

Rather, it is about:

- keeping it as simple and hard to game as possible

- reducing total debt in the economy to a sustainable level

If you have to pay down or pay off your mortgage, sorry. On the other hand, you would own a house free and clear. So life wouldn't be all bad.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by whateveracct on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:36AM (#35262699)
I'd imagine using it on your next monthly payment would be allowed. Agreed - not a bad deal.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by WJW on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:06AM (#35262179)
How is this a fair mechanic for a debt jubilee? People without debt get free extra money to invest. People deep in debt have to give the money they receive to the first group (ie the people they were indebted to), so those can then invest even more. The end result is that the people in debt are even further behind.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by hellisothers on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:21AM (#35262424)
I think you’re letting good be the enemy of great here though. Even if the debtor has to use all of the cash to pay to the lenders (who also got money), it “removes the yoke” of compounding crushing debt they’re currently unable to get out from under.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by WJW on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:34AM (#35262670)
That same compounding effect also works for the additional investments of the lenders. After all is said and done, the lending group will be able to use its newfound cash flow to purchase ever more investments at prices that the newly debt-free won't be able to match. Soon, the newly debt-free group will be "forced" back into debt because there is no other way to afford (say) a house. An exception would be if the interest on the debt is wildly higher than the interest gained by the investments, but even then the real problem is the high interest rates. There are better ways to regulate those than giving even more economic power to those already wealthy.

You can't get away from wealth disparity by giving to everyone, eventually you have to take from some group to give to the other. The group being taken from will generally not like that.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by chollida1 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:32AM (#35262634)
I think I can follow that logic. But what do we do about the inflation that this brings?

If all of a sudden there is a huge amount of extra cash in teh system, then prices go up alot. Lets say everything goes up 20%.

Now the poor who had debt no longer have debt but the price of life has gone way up for them.

The rich just pocket the money and the inflation doesn't affect their day to day life very much. Infact they are better off as assets have now inflated due to this new money.

Thinking about this more, this like the poorer you are the worse off you'd now be in this situation.

Unless the solution is to close your eyes and pretend like inflation would never happen, which the last year has shown us is not a reasonable belief to hold.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by euroderf on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:16PM (#35265006)
I guess what is proposed is a one-off inflationary expansion... much like the Covid stimulus bills (it all created how many trillions of dollars?).

But the net result was (AFAIK) a significant drop in indebtedness and poverty.

But then again, the inflation was picked up by companies as an excuse to profiteer, and initiate a spiral, which is why we find the Fed today kicking the economy in the groin.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by shjake on Thursday March 23, 2023 @01:20PM (#35278057)
> This is as fair a mechanic as I have ever heard for a debt jubilee.

Also not practically possible at least in the real world. Which is possibly why it sounds so great…

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by mindslight on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @07:08PM (#35268320)
I haven't read the proposal directly, but by your description of it I don't know how it could possibly work.

Even if debtors pay off a chunk of their debt, companies will be lining up to offer them new debt, especially as the chance of default goes down with the new precedent.

The way a real debt jubilee has to work is that debt is repudiated, with the creditor left holding the bag - not made good on.