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Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pacaro on Saturday March 18, 2023 @01:49PM (#35211395)
There's a two edged sword here, both for the university student and the independent learner

Learning in a structured environment provides access to the orthodox in the field of study. This can be very valuable to limit unnecessary exploration of blind avenues (there is of course such a thing as necessary exploration of blind avenues)

For those who progress through the academy, the risk is that they become narrow thinkers

For those without access to the structure, the risk is that they become cranks

These aren't absolutes, but they are observable trends

[Edit: are —> aren't]

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by hamburglar on Saturday March 18, 2023 @02:52PM (#35211971)
The self-taught path can also lead to another kind of deficiency, which is someone who knows all the concepts but doesn’t know how to talk about them efficiently. This ends up being the type of person who spends 5 minutes describing a component of their design where items are stored based on a key and can be looked up by that key so another process can stash and retrieve those things rather than recompute them but the things only stay stored for a certain amount of time or based on some other criteria like how much space is available or how frequently they are fetched and—- and you cut in and say “so a cache.”

I used to have a particularly brilliant (not sarcasm; he really was brilliant) colleague who “invented“ lots of things that had already been invented and would have saved a lot of time by just bouncing things off others who would say stuff like “oh, so it’s RPC” or “oh, so like a distributed queue” and stop him from reinventing the wheel.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by sitkack on Saturday March 18, 2023 @03:03PM (#35212066)
Now we have LLMs which can name concepts by description!

Your colleague can dump their thoughts into such a system and quickly get back the shibboleths and the foundational papers. Now is the best time to be a self-taught genius.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by ericd on Saturday March 18, 2023 @09:15PM (#35214957)
I think reimplementing that stuff is probably a big part of why you felt they were so brilliant, though - once you've built your own way up the tech tree, you can see the whole tree, and move around it at will, drawing disparate parts into solving whatever problem you have right then.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by hamburglar on Saturday March 18, 2023 @09:57PM (#35215213)
No, the brilliance was evidenced elsewhere. The fact that this person was unaware of (or didn’t appreciate) prior art and had to invent everything from scratch when it could have been pulled off the shelf wasted a lot of time debugging and running into mistakes that other people had already run into and solved. His brilliance meant we succeeded in spite of this stupid habit.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by sitkack on Saturday March 18, 2023 @02:59PM (#35212033)
I think pre-U education should focus on didactics and metacognition, philosophy, logic and the scientific method. To really focus on the thinking behind the thinking, to never do it by accident.

University should not be separate from earlier forms of education, things that are university like should also filter back into to high school and middle school.

As a borderline-crank myself, I think we need more folks with crank tendencies and more folks with a solid scientific approach. We have the most minds right now, amazing capabilities but at the same time, a narrowing Chesterton's Window (I know, Overton Window, :)

We should push kids harder in the ways that matter and less in the ways that is too soon. Grinding arithmetic and non-contextualized history is a multilayered waste of time. I am very pro both of those subjects, just the way we teach them an the timing is way off.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by somenameforme on Saturday March 18, 2023 @03:55PM (#35212515)
You just end up kicking the can around the same problem. While college education being dumbed down is a typical topic, the exact same is earlier education - and also for the exact same reason. Here [1] is an 8th grade exam from 1912. Good luck!

The issue isn't some failure of education, but the fact that people are different and have different skill sets. And as education came to be expected to be something everybody goes through and in a roughly similar fashion, the inevitable decline to the lowest common denominator was inevitable.

[1] - https://bullittcountyhistory.org/bchistory/schoolexam1912.ht...

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pdntspa on Saturday March 18, 2023 @04:21PM (#35212734)
How dumb is your expected audience if that test required a "good luck!"

It's like basic math....

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bumby on Saturday March 18, 2023 @04:44PM (#35212917)
>it’s like basic math

Did you continue to read it? Because it covers other topics. Without using the internet, can you name the eligibility requirements of the Gov. of Kentucky? How about five county officers and their principle duties?

I think your initial response belies a deeper problem we struggle with. Our attention span has shortened and social media has biased us towards more course interactions.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by Larrikin on Saturday March 18, 2023 @06:27PM (#35213774)
I would say that knowing eligibility requirements of the governor of Kentucky without using the internet is useless information to everyone that doesn't work in the Kentucky election office.

The useful skill is being able to find the information on the Internet if you want to run for governor of Kentucky. If you grow up in Kentucky learning it once in seventh grade is sufficient so you know it's a possibility, but will most likely never matter again after that class.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pdntspa on Saturday March 18, 2023 @06:38PM (#35213875)
Why do we need this stupid metric of "will I ever use this"? That is a recipe for ignorance. You will never be able to handle novel circumstances if you limit your knowledge to shit you think you will need.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bombolo on Saturday March 18, 2023 @08:17PM (#35214601)
True… but trivia isn't necessarily knowledge
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bumby on Saturday March 18, 2023 @09:10PM (#35214922)
Trivia is defined as “information of little value.” So who determines what is trivia and what isn’t?
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by WalterBright on Saturday March 18, 2023 @08:40PM (#35214741)
The trick is not knowing a lot - but knowing how to find out what you need to know.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bumby on Saturday March 18, 2023 @08:57PM (#35214836)
Why learn math when we all carry a superhuman calculator in our pocket?
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by Nasrudith on Sunday March 19, 2023 @07:31PM (#35224951)
Because it does computation, math is understanding the problem. Even with things like Wolfram Alpha to handle integration and derivation.

Without an understanding of math you can only cargo cult problems. You can get away with being lazy with computation with no real issur but only if you understand the underlying theory.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pdntspa on Saturday March 18, 2023 @06:31PM (#35213820)
That's all shit that I am sure I would be able to answer if I had paid attention in class. Which is what they are trying to test.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bumby on Saturday March 18, 2023 @08:56PM (#35214834)
Obviously the entire test is about what’s taught in class, but distilling it down to the single dimension of “basic math” in your dismissal was what I found interesting.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pdntspa on Saturday March 18, 2023 @09:40PM (#35215113)
Because it was the one area I was familiar with. The others... not so much. But if I was in classes contemporary to the test and had paid attention, I probably would have.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bumby on Saturday March 18, 2023 @09:52PM (#35215181)
I think that was part of the OPs point: in general, we aren’t familiar with all that they were testing for, so cherry-picking the domain you feel comfortable answering kinda proves their point rather than negating it.

Not that it really proves anything in the larger scope they seemed to imply. At least, not anymore than losing on the old show “are you smarter than a fifth grader?”

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by somenameforme on Sunday March 19, 2023 @12:41AM (#35216109)
All of us talking here are probably adults, probably substantially higher performing on average, living in the age of the internet where information for study can be trivially obtained, and discussing a test that was a benchmark for 8th grade education. What percent of incoming 9th graders today do you think could perform at all reasonably on that test?

Most people know that college education has become dramatically "simplified", but fewer seem aware that this is also true of nearly all of our education systems. And it's all for the same reason. When education was not required nor expected, what education that did exist was able to excel and push a group of people who genuinely wanted to learn in ways that are not really possible today, outside of things like elite preparatory academies.

And I think this lesson is extremely important when beginning to think about how education might be reformed. It's easy to say that secondary (or even primary) education should be more sophisticated, without considering the implications of that on the student body. You can't really have widespread exceptional education standards and the expectation that most people should be able to achieve those standards. This is why reforming education is a far bigger task than the current idea of 'throw more money at it' could ever solve.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_...

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by ghaff on Saturday March 18, 2023 @10:32PM (#35215419)
Most of the math I could do pretty straightforwardly though I'm unsure of the phrasing in a couple of cases.

Grammar I could probably have done in eighth grade but I forget some of the terminology.

Areas like history, I'd know a fair bit (as an American) but there's a lot of historical essentially trivia that I wouldn't know though may have known at one time.

Some of the double letters and other things in the spelling I'd probably get wrong. That's what red squiggly underlines when typing are for.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by inglor_cz on Saturday March 18, 2023 @03:57PM (#35212530)
The narrow thinkers / cranks dilemma is beautifully described, thank you.

You aren't in the academia, are you? Because you explain things in simple terms, yet very efficiently.

One of the diseases of current academia is use of an extremely stilted language, perhaps intended to paper over some logical cracks.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by Animats on Saturday March 18, 2023 @05:39PM (#35213355)
> One of the diseases of current academia is use of an extremely stilted language, perhaps intended to paper over some logical cracks.

One word. Derrida.

ChatGPT and its successors may put a big dent in the pretentious blithering industry. It's now too easy to generate a pseudo-academic style. Large language models are really good at this, because they have so much obscure text upon which to draw.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by WalterBright on Saturday March 18, 2023 @08:45PM (#35214772)
On the other hand, I enjoy using less common words because it adds flavor to the work. Sort of like painting the interior of the rooms of your house something other than off-white.

Yet I loathe the words "synergy" and "optics". Gag me with a spoon.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by wolverine876 on Saturday March 18, 2023 @11:13PM (#35215660)
Speaking of blithering, you are only parroting some Internet tropes in an echo chamber (which is probably where you learned them). You know by now that such things are nonsense; they are a waste of time and a poison to knowledge and reason.

And I think you are far behind the times - I'm not sure many people study Derrida these days.

What have you read recently?

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by Animats on Sunday March 19, 2023 @02:42AM (#35216626)
> What have you read recently?

"Embrace the Suck", by Gleeson. (Yet another Navy SEAL memoir. This author seems to enjoy the suffering a bit too much. Other SEAL memoirs describe the same training, but not with such enthusiasm for the pain.)

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by runlaszlorun on Sunday March 19, 2023 @02:57PM (#35222247)
I’m going out on a limb here… but did they all tell you about how hard ‘hell week’ was?
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by Animats on Sunday March 19, 2023 @04:47PM (#35223418)
Yes. It's about purpose. SEALs all write about how tough it is, but it's seen as a means to an end. People in that business need to be that tough to succeed on actual missions.

Gleeson seems to be into the suffering for its own sake.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by wolverine876 on Monday March 20, 2023 @01:12AM (#35227541)
Sorry, I meant, 'what have your read out of academia recently' that matches these claims?
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pacaro on Saturday March 18, 2023 @05:47PM (#35213420)
I've done a bit of both so to speak. I studied History and Philosophy of Science as an undergrad, but have worked as self taught software engineer for nearly 30 years.

I don't think that jargon is created to confuse or obfuscate, most likely the opposite. My favorite example is in sailing. Every functional part of a sailboat has a name, because precise communication between crew can be critical and saying "pull the rope, no the other one, no the other other one" doesn't help. But telling a non sailer to tighten a jib sheet seems unnecessarily persnickety.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by WalterBright on Saturday March 18, 2023 @08:48PM (#35214797)
> But telling a non sailer to tighten a jib sheet seems unnecessarily persnickety.

Not to me. I enjoy learning things like that.

I enjoyed watching the "Power" TV series not just for the plot, but for the colorful street jargon. For example: "I'll dime you" means I'll call you on the phone.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by wolverine876 on Saturday March 18, 2023 @11:14PM (#35215665)
> One of the diseases of current academia is use of an extremely stilted language, perhaps intended to paper over some logical cracks.

What have you read recently from academia?

> You aren't in the academia, are you? Because you explain things in simple terms, yet very efficiently.

Sometimes things aren't simple.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by wolverine876 on Saturday March 18, 2023 @06:40PM (#35213899)
> Learning in a structured environment provides access to the orthodox in the field of study.

That's a trope of critics, but not what happens. Have you studied in college? They (almost always) cover a very wide range - much wider than you will discover on your own - and the focus is to teach you to think critically and be able to examine them yourself. They are not there to teach you information, or that is secondary (at least in social sciences and humanities).

Also, you omit other enormous benefits, including personal tutorial - including guidance, feedback, etc. - from leading experts and PhD students, not to mention a room full of peers studying the same things.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pacaro on Saturday March 18, 2023 @10:16PM (#35215329)
So not only have I studied at a university (a canonically prestigious university FWIW), I have also had the good fortune to work closely with academics and researchers in my career.

I did not exclude other benefits of a university education in my statement, I simply highlighted one of the things that sets it apart from learning in isolation.

How wide a range of subjects one might discover on ones own is arguably broader (although of course not precluded by an academic education either)

I am largely self taught in CS (my degree was in another subject), but that had not prevented me from having multiple patents and having published academically too.

There are many other factors at play, and where and how you are educated is only one of them.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by wolverine876 on Saturday March 18, 2023 @11:08PM (#35215617)
> How wide a range of subjects one might discover on ones own is arguably broader

The original claim was about concepts beyond an orthodoxy, but whether concepts or subjects, it's very unlikely you will discover on your own more than a university full of domain experts who spend lifetimes discovering and studying these things. It's not remotely plausible.

> I am largely self taught in CS (my degree was in another subject), but that had not prevented me from having multiple patents and having published academically too.

Good for you. It doesn't mean you wouldn't have been better off learning CS from experts - especially with all your talent - nor is it a representative sample of education. Most people who don't go to college have no hope of matching its benefits on their own.

Also, your field of study was CS. I don't know about orthodoxy taught in CS, but again, in humanities and social sciences, what's taught is how to develop your own thinking. For example, parroting this orthodoxy (and rhetoric) of the anti-intellectual reactionaries is not a sign of well-developed critical thinking.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by FredPret on Sunday March 19, 2023 @03:34AM (#35216848)
Learning from experts is unambiguously good.

College isn't only learning from experts though.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by wolverine876 on Monday March 20, 2023 @01:13AM (#35227547)
So?
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by FredPret on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:35AM (#35229190)
I don't know, trying adding 2 and 2 and see if my argument leads anywhere?

Instruction from experts is a good thing, and that part of college is therefore a good thing. But there are many aspects of college that is directly or indirectly not exactly the same thing as sitting there in front of an instructor.

Things such as paying tuition, socializing, walking around campus, getting classes on being more woke. These aspects add and detract from the central idea of college, which is instruction by experts.

Therefore students have to weigh the total experience and see if it is worth it. The article is saying many of them reckon it is not worth it anymore.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by Fomite on Sunday March 19, 2023 @12:00AM (#35215903)
In my first year of college, as not an Econ major, I had been exposed to both an avowed socialist economist, and one of the leaders behind the push to deregulate the airline industry.

The idea that they represent a single orthodox is a little flawed.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by klabb3 on Saturday March 18, 2023 @11:14PM (#35215667)
As far as generalizations go, this is as good as it gets. Well put.

To generalize even further, perhaps to the point of uselessness, is to find balance between tradition and your own spirit–patiently learning how things are, while always critically considering how they could be different.

As long as you maintain perspective like this, and you’re aware of the biases and pitfalls of the avenue you’re pursuing, you can do great in either, or why not spend time in several?