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Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by sitkack on Saturday March 18, 2023 @02:59PM (#35212033)
I think pre-U education should focus on didactics and metacognition, philosophy, logic and the scientific method. To really focus on the thinking behind the thinking, to never do it by accident.

University should not be separate from earlier forms of education, things that are university like should also filter back into to high school and middle school.

As a borderline-crank myself, I think we need more folks with crank tendencies and more folks with a solid scientific approach. We have the most minds right now, amazing capabilities but at the same time, a narrowing Chesterton's Window (I know, Overton Window, :)

We should push kids harder in the ways that matter and less in the ways that is too soon. Grinding arithmetic and non-contextualized history is a multilayered waste of time. I am very pro both of those subjects, just the way we teach them an the timing is way off.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by somenameforme on Saturday March 18, 2023 @03:55PM (#35212515)
You just end up kicking the can around the same problem. While college education being dumbed down is a typical topic, the exact same is earlier education - and also for the exact same reason. Here [1] is an 8th grade exam from 1912. Good luck!

The issue isn't some failure of education, but the fact that people are different and have different skill sets. And as education came to be expected to be something everybody goes through and in a roughly similar fashion, the inevitable decline to the lowest common denominator was inevitable.

[1] - https://bullittcountyhistory.org/bchistory/schoolexam1912.ht...

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pdntspa on Saturday March 18, 2023 @04:21PM (#35212734)
How dumb is your expected audience if that test required a "good luck!"

It's like basic math....

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bumby on Saturday March 18, 2023 @04:44PM (#35212917)
>it’s like basic math

Did you continue to read it? Because it covers other topics. Without using the internet, can you name the eligibility requirements of the Gov. of Kentucky? How about five county officers and their principle duties?

I think your initial response belies a deeper problem we struggle with. Our attention span has shortened and social media has biased us towards more course interactions.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by Larrikin on Saturday March 18, 2023 @06:27PM (#35213774)
I would say that knowing eligibility requirements of the governor of Kentucky without using the internet is useless information to everyone that doesn't work in the Kentucky election office.

The useful skill is being able to find the information on the Internet if you want to run for governor of Kentucky. If you grow up in Kentucky learning it once in seventh grade is sufficient so you know it's a possibility, but will most likely never matter again after that class.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pdntspa on Saturday March 18, 2023 @06:38PM (#35213875)
Why do we need this stupid metric of "will I ever use this"? That is a recipe for ignorance. You will never be able to handle novel circumstances if you limit your knowledge to shit you think you will need.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bombolo on Saturday March 18, 2023 @08:17PM (#35214601)
True… but trivia isn't necessarily knowledge
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bumby on Saturday March 18, 2023 @09:10PM (#35214922)
Trivia is defined as “information of little value.” So who determines what is trivia and what isn’t?
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by WalterBright on Saturday March 18, 2023 @08:40PM (#35214741)
The trick is not knowing a lot - but knowing how to find out what you need to know.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bumby on Saturday March 18, 2023 @08:57PM (#35214836)
Why learn math when we all carry a superhuman calculator in our pocket?
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by Nasrudith on Sunday March 19, 2023 @07:31PM (#35224951)
Because it does computation, math is understanding the problem. Even with things like Wolfram Alpha to handle integration and derivation.

Without an understanding of math you can only cargo cult problems. You can get away with being lazy with computation with no real issur but only if you understand the underlying theory.

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pdntspa on Saturday March 18, 2023 @06:31PM (#35213820)
That's all shit that I am sure I would be able to answer if I had paid attention in class. Which is what they are trying to test.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bumby on Saturday March 18, 2023 @08:56PM (#35214834)
Obviously the entire test is about what’s taught in class, but distilling it down to the single dimension of “basic math” in your dismissal was what I found interesting.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by pdntspa on Saturday March 18, 2023 @09:40PM (#35215113)
Because it was the one area I was familiar with. The others... not so much. But if I was in classes contemporary to the test and had paid attention, I probably would have.
Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by bumby on Saturday March 18, 2023 @09:52PM (#35215181)
I think that was part of the OPs point: in general, we aren’t familiar with all that they were testing for, so cherry-picking the domain you feel comfortable answering kinda proves their point rather than negating it.

Not that it really proves anything in the larger scope they seemed to imply. At least, not anymore than losing on the old show “are you smarter than a fifth grader?”

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by somenameforme on Sunday March 19, 2023 @12:41AM (#35216109)
All of us talking here are probably adults, probably substantially higher performing on average, living in the age of the internet where information for study can be trivially obtained, and discussing a test that was a benchmark for 8th grade education. What percent of incoming 9th graders today do you think could perform at all reasonably on that test?

Most people know that college education has become dramatically "simplified", but fewer seem aware that this is also true of nearly all of our education systems. And it's all for the same reason. When education was not required nor expected, what education that did exist was able to excel and push a group of people who genuinely wanted to learn in ways that are not really possible today, outside of things like elite preparatory academies.

And I think this lesson is extremely important when beginning to think about how education might be reformed. It's easy to say that secondary (or even primary) education should be more sophisticated, without considering the implications of that on the student body. You can't really have widespread exceptional education standards and the expectation that most people should be able to achieve those standards. This is why reforming education is a far bigger task than the current idea of 'throw more money at it' could ever solve.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_...

Re:More Students Are Turning Away from College and Toward Ap... by ghaff on Saturday March 18, 2023 @10:32PM (#35215419)
Most of the math I could do pretty straightforwardly though I'm unsure of the phrasing in a couple of cases.

Grammar I could probably have done in eighth grade but I forget some of the terminology.

Areas like history, I'd know a fair bit (as an American) but there's a lot of historical essentially trivia that I wouldn't know though may have known at one time.

Some of the double letters and other things in the spelling I'd probably get wrong. That's what red squiggly underlines when typing are for.