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Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by bitcoinistrash on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:17PM (#35205408)
> The idea that all of us could together could crack RSA keys wasn't just a thought exercise, people signed up and did it.

Hasn’t changed that much. Here we are in 2023 where most of this distributed power goes to cracking sha 256 hashes. Just for speculation and profit instead of leaderboards.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by hot_gril on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:35PM (#35205498)
Yeah, cryptocurrency stuff is the closest I've ever felt today to the spirit of the old internet.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by SECProto on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:07PM (#35205653)
> cryptocurrency stuff is the closest I've ever felt today to the spirit of the old internet

Cryptocurrency feels like the exact opposite of the old internet to me - it feels like a bunch of anonymous bros looking for the next sucker to scam out of money and get rich quick.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by Breza on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:25PM (#35205735)
I agree with you. The early web was full of amazing opportunities but had trouble monetizing things. Cryptocurrency is the opposite, it tries to monetize everything but doesn't have practical uses.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by fho on Saturday March 18, 2023 @12:08AM (#35205976)
Bitcoin was "old internet" tech at some point. Just for reference, I bought my first BTC at 0.20 €/BTC. Back then it looked like the future to a lot of us ... "hey! We/Hackers can make our own money. And it is superior to state issued money!" ... looking back, it honestly it is somewhat to see the state of cryptocurrencies today.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by RobotToaster on Saturday March 18, 2023 @02:53AM (#35206793)
I thought it was a dumb idea at the time, that nobody would be stupid enough to invest in.

I still think it's a dumb idea, but I've learnt not to underestimate human stupidity.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by fho on Saturday March 18, 2023 @04:06AM (#35207169)
See ... Back then we thought that it would be replacing cash. Some friends and I were thinking about having wallets in smart cards (technically possible) and distributing BTC terminals to local businesses.

The whole crazy investment thing came much later and basically destroyed any hope of using BTC on a daily basis.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by andirk on Saturday March 18, 2023 @06:03PM (#35213553)
If you bought $10 USD of it "at the time", you'd have a giant pile of USD. Who is stupid in that lack of purchase?

Point is a lot of things are stupid and turn out to work really well. USD is backed by a computer at the Federal Reserve. Sounds pretty stupid but it works.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by fho on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:06AM (#35228985)
Hindsight is 20/20 ... I bought my BTC at 0.20€ ... Sold most of it at 20€, the rest at 200€.

I could have been rich ... but how should I have known.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by RobotToaster on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:42AM (#35230144)
Oh, I definitely feel stupid for underestimating human stupidity.

>USD is backed by a computer at the Federal Reserve. Sounds pretty stupid but it works.

Pretty much why I think it's stupid as an investment, it's no better than the USD if SHTF. You can't hold it like gold or silver.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by hot_gril on Monday March 20, 2023 @01:46PM (#35235551)
You're right that it's not meant for SHTF. It's for holding value under normal circumstances instead of passively investing in whatever other bubbles (stocks etc).

Btw, not very many people are putting their money into gold and silver. Returns on that have been lackluster for decades. If BTC truly became "digital gold," I wouldn't be very interested.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by grumbel on Saturday March 18, 2023 @05:52AM (#35207679)
> looking back, it honestly it is somewhat to see the state of cryptocurrencies today.

Steam and pretty much every other regular retailer dropped Bitcoin support five years ago. The state of Bitcoin feels even more hopeless today than it did back then. It is impressive how you can run a trillion dollar pyramid scheme on just digital nothingness, but I always hoped for cryptocurrency to eventually turn into a real digital cash. Bypassing the fees and incompatibles between regular payment schemes. But none of that has happened. Bitcoin is still slow and expensive and there is hardly anything you can buy with it anyway. Worse yet, most Bitcoin still gets stored in "banks" instead of being self hosted, so it failed on the whole P2P cash thing as well.

It's impressive tech, but for all the wrong reasons.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by Noujin on Saturday March 18, 2023 @07:06AM (#35208026)
It's still taking time I think. We understood that L1 should never have been the place for the end consumers and that's why all the chains (Bitcoin-Lightning; ETH various systems like StarkNet, zkSync, Loopring and so on) are currently in the process of finding out how to make everything that is happening on L1 possible on L2. On Ethereum one big part left out is still the the general ability to run EVM code on L2, but that is happening like right now.

Biggest problem after that will be user experience, but I am currently in the Ledger Connect (now Ledger extension) Testflight beta and it makes using dApps on iOS with a hardware wallet a really good experience. No cables, no app switching, no weird abstraction barrier. The new Stax also seems like a well thought out wallet that was created with a focus on UX. Only thing I don't yet see is a good NFC integration for existing payment terminals.

I still think the industry is really early. Layer 3 is now a topic for privacy preserving user interactions which is super interesting. It doesn't then stop at being your own bank, but with it you will be able to really control your own identity without anyone standing in the way. For needing less trust sharing your data and being self sovereign. Using the chains just as a highly accessible, authorized data store.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by hot_gril on Monday March 20, 2023 @01:42PM (#35235464)
I like cryptocurrency overall, but the bar for convenient purchases is really high. For anyone to care, it'd better be as easy as tapping my credit card on the terminal... which even Apple Pay isn't.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by matthewdgreen on Saturday March 18, 2023 @06:04AM (#35207735)
Once the original Bitcoin OG cypherpunks shifted from “here is an amazing new technology that could do entirely new things” to tweeting about the USD price of Bitcoin, I knew that era was over. I think it was done by ~2015.

The Ethereum research community is still doing very neat cutting-edge things, but they’re a younger generation and didn’t claim to believe in the same principles (only to later disappoint us all.)

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by Noujin on Saturday March 18, 2023 @07:08AM (#35208031)
How did the Ethereum research community disappoint us all?
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by thfuran on Saturday March 18, 2023 @07:36AM (#35208195)
They just said that they didn't.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by fho on Saturday March 18, 2023 @05:19PM (#35213214)
Yep ... I just looked it up, I bought my first BTC in 2010/11 ... Back when they were just handing out 0.01 BTC to mess around.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by wvoch235 on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:43PM (#35205837)
The nature of the scam has evolved, and possibly the parties involved have changed, but the scams were always there.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by delecti on Saturday March 18, 2023 @12:14AM (#35206019)
I think before ~2014ish it felt like the old internet. Using bitcoin to buy drugs online really felt like the internet was free and empowering again.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by johnyzee on Saturday March 18, 2023 @06:24AM (#35207823)
The 'old internet' was chuck full of hucksters and scammers and 'futurists' selling snake oil, at least from circa 1993 onward and in full bloom since around the time of the Netscape IPO. It was pretty much exactly like the crypto industry, a core of real technologists doing amazing stuff, and then a whole industry of scammy sales people on top of it.

If you are talking about pre-web, I'd say crypto had that era too, up until around 2012 when bitcoin really took off.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by chungy on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:18PM (#35205423)
Bitcoin has nothing to do with "cracking SHA256 hashes", for what it's worth. The only thing remotely related is how it brute-forces inputs until it generates hashes that begin with a certain number of bits set to 0.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by hot_gril on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:33PM (#35205491)
It's continually testing the strength of SHA256. If you can find a way to even partially crack it, you win money. Edit: Also, way more hashes are happening all the time now, increasing the chance that someone finds a collision if it were possible.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by chungy on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:56PM (#35205600)
That's still not what the Bitcoin miners are doing. They're manipulating inputs, trillions of times a second, just to match a "magic" target for a SHA256 hash starting with a certain number of bits set to 0.

Cracking hashes would imply that they're taking pre-existing hashes and reversing them to find the input.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by hot_gril on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:01PM (#35205627)
Hashes have multiple requirements for security. You're talking about only one facet, which is that you cannot be given a hash and produce a matching input without consulting a rainbow table (I think there's a term for this, I forget it though).
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by IncRnd on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:20PM (#35205711)
Chungy is correct though. Bitcoin has absolutely nothing to do with "cracking sha256 hashes". Bitcoin hashes until the correct output is found. There are double hashes, but that is solely to avoid collisions and has nothing to do with determining the plaintext from a known digest.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by thfuran on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:25PM (#35205739)
>and has nothing to do with determining the plaintext from a known digest.

So why'd you bring it up?

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by IncRnd on Saturday March 18, 2023 @01:08AM (#35206290)
To add to the discussion.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by squeaky-clean on Saturday March 18, 2023 @01:36AM (#35206436)
User bitcoinistrash is the one that brought it up, and they're spreading incorrect information about how it works.

Cracking sha256 hashes implies trying to reverse a specific hash. There are literally thousands (millions?) of potential inputs that hash to a valid bitcoin mining block output. It's basically a race to find the first one matching the rules of the current block difficulty. The goal isn't to produce any one specific input/hash pair.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by glass3 on Saturday March 18, 2023 @02:59AM (#35206829)
In which context would somebody try to reverse a hash? That would be like arbitrarily enhancing a bad-resolution image to see something that cannot be seen.

Hash collision should always be about finding matching content for a hash.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by postalrat on Monday March 20, 2023 @08:28AM (#35230541)
And if you cracked the math of sha256 you wouldnt need to search you would just calculate one of the inputs to produce whatever you want. All zeros would be as easy as one.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by salawat on Saturday March 18, 2023 @01:47AM (#35206485)
It's kinda sad. If we persisted all the hashes that have been tried, we'd have the mother of all rainbow tables.

Be a bitch to search. But damn would we know the topography of the function space.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by int0x2e on Saturday March 18, 2023 @07:18AM (#35208074)
Why hasn't anyone made that crypto currency yet?
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by salawat on Saturday March 18, 2023 @02:09PM (#35211589)
Because it would actually solve a problem?

...I'll see myself out.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by cypress66 on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:18PM (#35205705)
> hashes that begin with a certain number of bits set to 0.

This myth was always intriguing to me. Where does it come from?

It's not a number of 0s (which would imply difficulty could only be doubled or halved), it's just finding a hash that is less than the target.

Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by kevinwang on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:39PM (#35205811)
It's in the original Bitcoin whitepaper
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by chungy on Saturday March 18, 2023 @12:34AM (#35206118)
Thanks, this is likely where I read it first. I hadn't realized the actual implementation got more complicated than that. :)
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by cypress66 on Saturday March 18, 2023 @10:04AM (#35209214)
Interesting. Even though I read the paper many times, I didn't catch that. I guess I always skipped that part because I assume I already knew it.
Re:SETI@home Is in Hibernation by pmarreck on Saturday March 18, 2023 @12:03AM (#35205949)
"Less than the target" in effect is "more leading zeroes" depending on how low the target is. But the lower, the more leading zeros, Right?