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Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by mr_00ff00 on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @04:03PM (#35173965)
I think you are thinking too specifically. Neutrality is to appease all the rich that have stashed their fortunes. If most of the world condemned the US or China for an aggressive act, I would expect them to act the same.

If they take a side, they lose the fortunes of more than just Russians. Anyone who is controversial and has money in Switzerland will realize it’s no longer safe in the event the world exposes their bad deeds.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by holgerschurig on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @04:25PM (#35174245)
> Neutrality is to appease all the rich that have stashed their fortunes.

How did you get to this conclusion?

* Switzerland has neutrality since the Vienna Congress 1814/1815, more than 200 years

* they weren't really rich back then

* instead, big powers of Europe feared that Switzerland will join one of their opponents, so it was dictated to Switzerland originally

* later, when Switzerland saw how the countries surrounding them got demolished again and again in each war, they actually adopted it. It is now in their constitution, article 185.

* the consitution can only be changed by the electorate of Switzerland (about 6 mio people), not the government or the parliament

So why would these 6 million people add / keep neutrality "to appease the rich" ? Not all swiss people are rich. In the southern french parts the risk to sink into poverty is even higher than in some parts of Germany!

Maybe a not-so-swiss centric view can shed more light on your (wrong) hypothesis:

In Europe Switzerland isn't the only (current) neutral country. We have Austria, Ireland and some smaller ones, like Liechtenstein. We used to have also Portugal, Sweden or Belgium in the neutral camp. Are they all known to "appease the rich" ? I doubt. Except if your idea of not appeasing rich people is having a government form like Soviet Russia, GDR, or Yugoslavia.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by mr_00ff00 on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @04:30PM (#35174299)
This comment feels like it’s more directed at the comment above mine than mine.

I’m not implying that is where Swiss neutrality comes from, more making a counter point that IF they are staying neutral (currently) to protect fortunes then it’s not just to protect Russians.

I wasn’t making a statement about its history. Banking in Switzerland I realize is fairly recent. I am not even saying that’s definitely what they are currently doing.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by spandrew on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @05:31PM (#35175011)
Your initial assertion that Swiss is neutral to make money is not accurate. Historically it was to prevent casualties in wars between France and... whoever else. This has enabled it to be the bank of anyone trying to escape prying eyes - but that is a byproduct of their neutrality; not the purpose of it.
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by zx8080 on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @11:11PM (#35177700)
> This has enabled it to be the bank of anyone trying to escape prying eyes - but that is a byproduct of their neutrality; not the purpose of it.

It's been some correlation between "neutrality" and "money" for centuries. They go hand in hand.

Sometimes it's really hard to tell the effect from the cause.

Also, it's easy to imagine "Neutrality brings us moneys! Let's stick with it.". Not saying if it's 100% true, of course.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by holgerschurig on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:05AM (#35179052)
> I's been some correlation between "neutrality" and "money" for centuries.

You state still this falsehoods after I pointed out that

* other swiss pecularities (e.g. their banking laws about anonymous number accounts) might be more to blame

* other european neutral countries didn't exhibit any correlation between neutrality and money?

If you talk about correlation, then you need to take in the full data set. You speak general about neutrality, so take in ALL neutral countries. Malta, Ireland, Austria, Liechtenstein. And maybe even neutral microstates like Vatican.

Only THEN can you come to a conclusion. But not by only focusing on one single country, and extrapolating your observation to all of neutrality.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by GoblinSlayer on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:51AM (#35179314)
They have anonymous accounts??? Like, fully remote?
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by timmattison on Friday March 17, 2023 @03:20PM (#35201614)
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by holgerschurig on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:01AM (#35179027)
I clearly is/was directed at you.

Wasn't it you that stated the hypothesis "neutrality is to appease the rich"?

Can't you see that I tried to refute this hypothesis? But maybe you have arguments to back this hypothesis?

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by trompetenaccoun on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @05:40PM (#35175104)
Your comments are not contradictory, it feels you're both just looking at different corners of the same picture. like you mention yourself "they weren't really rich back then", now they are. How did they get so rich?
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by folli on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @05:47PM (#35175178)
Mostly industrialization and export of machinery and (later) pharmaceuticals. Banking is less of a relevant factor for Switzerland's GDP than most people realize. If I remember correctly even the insurance business (which is also considered financial industry) is larger than banking.
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by makeitdouble on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @08:58PM (#35176823)
> Mostly industrialization and export of machinery and (later) pharmaceuticals.

Pharmaceuticals exports are highlight of Swiss exports, but as only 25% of the GDP is attributed to industry[0], this can't be a significant part of the economy.

Now how much of the 74% of the service revenue is banking is up for grabs, as tourism for instance is also a potentially big part. But even if it was only half of that, it would still be bigger that the pharma I guess ? (except if patents and/or IP was also counted as "services" ? but would it be that big either way ?)

[0] https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/wirtschaft...

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by holgerschurig on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:11AM (#35179091)
I know that the banking sector in Switzerland only employs 89'000 people. So the statement a bit above "banking doesn't contribute as much as people think" seems to be believable to me.
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by GoblinSlayer on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:57AM (#35179350)
Bank's income depends on the volume of its assets, not the number of employees. The usual power law.
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by _a_a_a_ on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @06:56PM (#35175837)
With money.
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by kragen on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @09:01PM (#35176843)
not getting into wars helped a shitload
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by ur-whale on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:27AM (#35179175)
> not getting into wars helped a shitload

It very much did indeed.

And probably a lesson the rest of the world should finally learn.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by ekianjo on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @11:02PM (#35177634)
a thing called industrial revolution. ever heard about it?
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by zx8080 on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @11:14PM (#35177717)
Arms export too. Currently it's blooming [1]. As during all previous wars.

1 - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-07/swiss-arm...

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by holgerschurig on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:10AM (#35179081)
> How did they get so rich?

I don't know exactly, maybe you tell me?

If it were because of Neutrality, then surely Ireland, Austria, Malta must have become equally rich. But ... they aren't. So certainly other factors than just neutrality contribute to it.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by oblio on Thursday March 16, 2023 @06:55AM (#35180337)
> Ireland, Austria, Malta must have become equally rich. But ... they aren't.

You might want to look at some recent GDP growth charts for at least Ireland and Malta ;-)

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by oblio on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:45AM (#35183467)
Also, up until 2011 Austria was richer (GDP per capita) than the US.
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by red-iron-pine on Thursday March 16, 2023 @01:08PM (#35184895)
Austria hasn't been neutral for very long. They were fighting all over Europe all of the time, including well after the CH went neutral.

Like, Austria was in both World Wars; the Swiss weren't.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by ur-whale on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:23AM (#35179162)
> How did they get so rich?

The sanest political system in the world, where power is only ever reluctantly relinquished to the higher authorities (individual -> city -> state -> federation), unlike - say - the US, where the power that still remains in the hands of local govts is nothing but a joke.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by oblio on Thursday March 16, 2023 @07:01AM (#35180397)
How does your neat "I have the conclusion before I even collected the data" explain Singapore, for example?
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by ur-whale on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:01AM (#35182088)
Lee Kuan Yew explicitly cited Switzerland as the best run country in the world and a model for Singapore in the 60's when he designed (with the help of foreign advisors such as Albert Winsemius [1][2][3][4]) the way the country's institutions would work.

[1] https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/infopedia/articles/SIP_1457_20...

[2] https://www.worldscientific.com/pressroom/2022-05-25-01

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Winsemius

[4] https://thekopi.co/2019/09/02/albert-winsemius/

So, not sure your point carries much weight.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by trompetenaccoun on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:49AM (#35182765)
Singapore is effectively a one party state, with the same group (PAP) in power for over 60 years. They outlawed public protests except for ones specifically sanctioned by them. They control the press. The son of the guy you cited is the current leader of the country. It's nothing like Switzerland at all and never has been, unless your argument is that both countries are capitalist and have leveraged their unique positions as tiny nations between major powers, establishing themselves as banking hubs. Politically, socially and otherwise they're nothing alike.

And just to drive home the point why citing unbiased sources is important: According to the early fascists they were a movement lobbying for democracy and women's rights, among other positive sounding demands. That was right on their manifesto in big letters. It didn't quite turn out that way, and in fact looking back with the power of hindsight people like Mussolini had questionable motives from the start.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by oblio on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:07AM (#35182917)
Switzerland is primarily characterized by direct democracy, frequent referendums and its federal system that delegates a lot of power to the cantons.

Singapore is primarily characterized by... none of those things???

> So, not sure your point carries much weight.

It's not "my point", it's reality on the ground.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by petre on Thursday March 16, 2023 @12:54PM (#35184667)
They prey on poor Indians, Indonesians and Filipinos to advance their economy, just like the UAE. That's how.
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by greatpatton on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:26AM (#35181637)
Maybe because above all Switzerland always bring political stability as a key element of prosperity (a bit like the Chinese but with true democracy allowing this unique feature). The country has been in a permanent coalition government for the last 150years.
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by omgomgomgomg on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @07:51PM (#35176307)
No, the guy is right.

The neutrality is used for propagating "you and your money are safe here", which is true at first glance. They are ready to take it from you as soon your seat gets a bit too hot for your liking.

The 1814 neutrality was granted after Napoleon invaded the confederation and made it a republic, only to be saved by Russia, no less, so a different solution had to be found.

They were dirt poor back then.

No country was afraid of Switzerland doing anything, they had no military might whatsoever, the current militia model was introduced in fear of a Nazi invasion.

Your statement about constitional changes is vastly incorrect, omitting many things, see here https://www.parlament.ch/de/%C3%BCber-das-parlament/parlamen...

There is no poverty is switzerland, even the worst off are better off than us citizens on food stamps. The treasury returns so much money to the cantons, they could build a socialst utopia if they wanted, so long the economy as a whole is fine. They already have such a thing on a federal level, its just not called guaranteed minimum income. Its been in place for a while. This all is before corporate and income taxes and vat.

Say what you want, but soviet russia and yugoslavia and such, exepct for the communist elite did not give an iota about appeasing the rich. Not saying it was the best way, but they stood their ground until they sank. Switzerland will sell out 1000 times any day before that happens.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by kragen on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @09:04PM (#35176870)
swiss mercs were dominant players in early modern warfare, and republican citizen's armies in the old swiss cantons go back in some cases 700 years
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by PetitPrince on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @09:33PM (#35177063)
> No country was afraid of Switzerland doing anything, they had no military might whatsoever

Swiss mercenaries were famous and feared enough to be regularly employed by the French royalty and also the Pope.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by holgerschurig on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:21AM (#35179147)
> you and your money are safe here

Okay. But ... isn't "me and my money" not save in Malta? Or in Ireland? Or in Austria? Or used to be it unsave in Belgium, Portugal, Sweden? All mentioned countries are (or were) neutral.

> Your statement about constitional changes is vastly incorrect,

I stand corrected.

> There is no poverty is switzerland

Here you are vastly incorrect: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/poverty-in-switzerland-...

They have things like "Tafel" like in Germany, they have students that pay lots for their flats but have little income, they have homeless people ... the idea that there is no poverty, or no risk-of-poverty doesn't make sense, even when you don't know reports like the one I posted.

Oh, and not everyone can drive to Italy or Germany to enjoy 50% cheaper prices for groceries.

> even the worst off are better off than us citizens on food stamps

One doesn't exclude the other. You can be poor, and still be better off compared to some dysfunctional state.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by kwere on Thursday March 16, 2023 @01:32PM (#35185229)
Swiss confederacy kicked the ass of the Burgundy juggernaut[0] and was feared by all its more powerful neighbours which would have dreamed of controlling the natural fortress that is switzerland against their own rivals

[0]https://medium.com/@weeklydoseofhistory/the-burgundian-wars-...

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by smallnix on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @11:09PM (#35177691)
> In the southern french parts the risk to sink into poverty is even higher than in some parts of Germany!

I don't know about the validity, but I love how Germany (as one of the richest countries in the world), is used in this comparison.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by holgerschurig on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:25AM (#35179171)
In this risk-of-poverty statistics, usually the people are compared to their peers. Like how much are other people earning on average? If you are under a certain level below this, you have a risk of poverty.

Many people regularly oppose this, as being inexact.

Maybe this is correct ... but: the mean income level also influences prices, e.g. for flats or groceries. Swiss prices here are exceptional. What costs 1 EUR in Germany costs 2 swiss francs there. And francs and euro are more-or-less on parity, if you exchange them. Droves of Swiss people drive to Germany (or Italy) to buy groceries. But: some people don't have a car. They can't do that.

I saw a map of Switzerland with different colors on how high the risk of poverty is estimated in which region, and clearly the french speaking parts around Genevre had a worse risk assessment than e.g. the italian or german speaking parts. You couldn't really see the Röstigraben, but you could still see a stark difference.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by shjake on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:14AM (#35179110)
> 1814

I think it’s much older than that, though. The Swiss confederacy had been trying to be neutral since the 16th-17th centuries.

Also Austria does have some significant pro-Russian tendencies for some reason..

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by red-iron-pine on Thursday March 16, 2023 @01:14PM (#35184976)
The Russians exerted a vast amount of effort to recruit and generate sympathetic leaders in Europe (and elsewhere; i.e. Trump). They had a lot of sympathizers in Germany, and a small cadre of NATO-skeptics in France.

Austria is a lot smaller and easy to influence.

It's also not in NATO, and there is strong public sentiment to stay out of NATO -- which means there is a vacuum Russia can enter in ways that it cannot with full-on NATO members.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by GoblinSlayer on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:43AM (#35179279)
All capitalist countries appease the rich. It's how capitalism works. Capital means wealth.
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by norswap on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:10AM (#35181437)
Switzerland's neutrality is a fact of geopolitics. The geography of Switzerland means a big part of the country is essentially a natural fortress with bunkers cut directly into the mountain and firing down. There is a reason the Nazis never invaded and that wasn't neutrality (neutrality didn't do Belgium any good in WW2). Unlike other countries, Switzerland can afford neutrality and it is ultimately the most profitable option.

Neutrality though made it a good place for exchange and safe-keeping. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gold

These days, I don't think Switzerland really fears an invasion, but it's true that the financial incentives have taken over. At the level of the population, the neutrality culture runs deep, and as Switzerland is one of the richest countries in the world, there's really no reason for the average Swiss to be upset about it.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by red-iron-pine on Thursday March 16, 2023 @01:19PM (#35185057)
The Nazis had plans to invade -- Operation Tannenbaum -- it just wasn't a priority. You're fighting the Soviet Juggernaut in the East, and the British Commonwealth + the US in the West. Why piss away tons of troops to get a small mountain country with no strategic resources that's effectively bottled up?

But knock out the UK or the Soviets, lower the pressure, and there is little doubt the Nazis would have made a go of it eventually.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by simplotek on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @04:09PM (#35174046)
> If they take a side (...)

No one expects Switzerland to pick a side. They just expect their arms industry to honor their agreements and their government to be fiscally responsible and sell their retired gear back to it's manufacturers.

Switzerland is instead clearly picking Russia's side by doing all at its reach to stop Ukraine from defending itself against Russia's invasion and genocide of the Ukrainian people, and have the audacity of calling that neutrality.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by reissbaker on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @04:56PM (#35174602)
During the Holocaust, the Swiss "neutrality" included wholesale theft of Jewish depositors bank accounts — which they finally admitted to in the 1990s but still refused to pay any of it back to the survivors until an American lawsuit forced them to — so color me unsurprised.
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by omgomgomgomg on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @07:55PM (#35176338)
Not just that, they also rejected jews right at their borders beginng for asylum.

And that guy Meili who exposed the scandal was ostracised and forever remained unemployable. He was not a banker either, he was a security guy in a bank.

Lets not forget that the italian fascists and the nazis safely parked their looted money in switzerland.

Switzerland was used as a corridor by Italy and Nazi Germany to transports "goods".

Its a little known fact that the allies bombarded switzerland towards the end of ww2, a bit of a reminder for product weapons to the axis of evil as a neutral state.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by xkcd1963 on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @09:07PM (#35176895)
Schaffhausen was officially a mistake. Also please provide links to your claims
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by xkcd1963 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @12:40AM (#35178194)
I don't care if you downvoted me, provide links you lazy schmuck
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by reissbaker on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @04:55AM (#35258494)
Switzerland rejected over 39,000 refugees, most of them Jews, and asked German authorities to stamp Jewish passports with the letter J in order to identify them to Swiss border agents. In 1942, it explicitly closed its borders to Jews entirely. Here's the AP News on the subject, since you're not aware: https://apnews.com/article/0be18d0f36c04b86d7592bc6b16f7fa6
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by holgerschurig on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:39AM (#35179247)
> During the Holocaust, the Swiss "neutrality"

And they saved 25000 domestic and 21000 immigrated Jews. Not much ... but compared to their country size, this was more than Vichy France.

In any case, why is reaching back more than 80 years relevant here? My country (Germany) did *WAY* bigger atrocities back then. From my point of view, the 80-years-ago swiss people were decent, giving the circumstances. We shouldn't forget that Switzerland was surrounded by Nazi countries or lackey countries: Hitler's Austria-Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Vichy France, occupied northern France. They did bad things, certainly. But there was also a lot of pressure involved.

And guess what: Switzerland paid reparations for this, a fact that people trying to bash Swiss behavior back then are unlikely to state.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by exoque on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @06:55PM (#35175833)
>No one expects Switzerland to pick a side. They just expect their arms industry to honor their agreements and their government to be fiscally responsible and sell their retired gear back to it's manufacturers.

Can you provide a link which proves that switzerland has an obligation to sell its under licence in switzerland produced tanks which still are part of its military (reserve) to anyone? Thanks.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by xkcd1963 on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @09:05PM (#35176881)
Supporting Ukraine over Russia is breaking with neutrality
Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by holgerschurig on Thursday March 16, 2023 @03:35AM (#35179228)
> Switzerland is instead clearly picking Russia's side by

... implementing all EU sanction packets against Russia?

... by providing financial and civilian aid to Ukraine, like money for the government, generators, medical aid, winter clothes? The aid of Switzerland isn't that large, truth be told. But, compared by GDP, it's more than Turkey helps.

Re:Credit Suisse sheds nearly 25%, key backer says no more m... by oska on Thursday March 16, 2023 @04:58AM (#35179683)
> Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html