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Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by mcculley on Sunday March 12, 2023 @09:17AM (#35119719)
> personal space with a door, which most companies can't afford

A company that cannot afford proper offices is probably not creating much value. Big tech companies can afford offices. They choose to allocate capital differently.

When I ran a consultancy, I spent a lot of rent of making sure my employees had both proper offices where they could think and common areas where they could collaborate. Doing otherwise is foolish.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by rootsudo on Sunday March 12, 2023 @10:22AM (#35120364)
>When I ran a consultancy, I spent a lot of rent of making sure my employees had both proper offices where they could think and common areas where they could collaborate. Doing otherwise is foolish.

Looking back, wouldn't it have made more sense to not spend alot on rent and let the employees work at home? Granted, no common areas to collaborate.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by trenchgun on Sunday March 12, 2023 @10:32AM (#35120468)
It is very impartant to have live collaboration possibility.

Also working from home is not as productive.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by devjab on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:18AM (#35121064)
> Also working from home is not as productive.

I'd like to see your data on that. When covid hit and sent everyone home I was working in the Danish public sector and we saw an increase in productivity. People worked less hours, or at least, they were using their computers for less hours, but they delivered more.

It probably would've lead to reforms if it wasn't because the employee satisfaction didn't do equally well. As you might imagine, covid was hard on middle managers, but it also turned out that quite a lot of employees (public sector might be very different than tech) got very lonely while working from home every day.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by throwuwu on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:34AM (#35121293)
> it also turned out that quite a lot of employees (public sector might be very different than tech) got very lonely while working from home every day.

There’s your answer, demoralized employees are unproductive.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by coldtea on Sunday March 12, 2023 @12:40PM (#35122349)
Let's give them commutes, and have them on an open plan or cubicles, that should boost their morale!
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by msm_ on Sunday March 12, 2023 @01:06PM (#35122778)
Commuting (I usually bike) and meeting with my teammates in person does wonders to my morale indeed.
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by mwest217 on Sunday March 12, 2023 @01:21PM (#35123014)
For me, who’s made the decision to live 1.1 miles from the office, my commute (either biking or walking) is a positive benefit. During Covid WFH I would try to get out for a similar length of walk in the morning, but it’s better for my brain to get into work mode by actually traveling to a different space.
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by nec4b on Sunday March 12, 2023 @03:49PM (#35125283)
You do realize it's physically impossible for everyone to live so close to the office?
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by TheHappyOddish on Saturday March 18, 2023 @11:25AM (#35209831)
And because of this nobody should be allowed to commute?
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by raydev on Sunday March 12, 2023 @01:03PM (#35122725)
Might have also been that recreational places were mostly closed or on limited hours, and many people forced into working from home didn't have adequate physical space or time management habits to create boundaries.
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by coldtea on Sunday March 12, 2023 @12:38PM (#35122310)
Citation needed
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by mcculley on Sunday March 12, 2023 @10:44AM (#35120602)
It makes more sense now. Back then we did not have as many good tools for remote collaboration. My business had certain other constraints that made physical space necessary.
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by imiric on Sunday March 12, 2023 @10:31AM (#35120466)
Come on, realistically, no company can afford private offices for all their workforce. Even for roles that do require complete concentration like programming, it's not feasible to expect even Big Tech companies to foot the bill. The infrastructure cost alone would be astronomical. Such buildings just don't scale, and the setup couldn't keep up with the growth rate. So at best, they can have private offices for tech leads, managers and senior staff, but this undeniably goes against the "flat" organizational structure some companies like to virtue signal.

What can be much more manageable is to have comfortable cubicles for everyone (not the cramped desks with dividers, which is what probably gave cubicles the bad rep), and also have many small and large meeting rooms where people can congregate and collaborate in. This has the benefit of defaulting to semi-private workspaces which can easily scale, and moves the noisy collaborative areas to closed rooms, so that they don't bother anyone else. The smaller rooms could even serve as rotating private offices, if needed, that anyone can book for a limited period of time.

But the open floor office only has practical drawbacks, and definitely has to go. It only got popular because it's really the cheapest option for companies; just place some desks, chairs and monitors in a huge space, and sell it as "collaborative". But if they really want to entice people to come back to the office, they need to invest in better working conditions.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by photonbeam on Sunday March 12, 2023 @10:38AM (#35120543)
How much does an office actually cost in real $?

Some companies like Microsoft routinely provided them

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by mcculley on Sunday March 12, 2023 @10:42AM (#35120586)
> no company can afford private offices for all their workforce

Go visit any good law firm or CPA firm.

I benefit from my equity holdings in tech companies. They are choosing to give that money to me in valuation instead of building out proper offices.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by imiric on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:22AM (#35121114)
> Go visit any good law firm or CPA firm.

Do these companies hire thousands of employees a year? I doubt that.

Private offices for everyone just doesn't scale at the same growth rate of tech companies. Where would they realistically fit thousands of new employees per year if everyone had their own office?

> I benefit from my equity holdings in tech companies. They are choosing to give that money to me in valuation instead of building out proper offices.

And you expect the buildings to just magically expand for new employees? I'd rather not take a pay cut, and "settle" for comfortable cubicles. Or better yet, work remotely, and get a raise from the money the company is saving on not having to pay for my office space.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by mcculley on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:30AM (#35121216)
You are conflating costs with difficulty. I agree that it is difficult to manage growth. This is a way in which some organizations create more value per person and per dollar expended.

One approach is for an organization to use open offices while they are building out proper offices.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by smugma on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:58AM (#35121676)
Large accounting firms hire tens of thousands per year.

They have significant churn.

That said, when I worked at one, I didn’t have an office. I didn’t even have a dedicated desk.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by coldtea on Sunday March 12, 2023 @12:42PM (#35122389)
>Do these companies hire thousands of employees a year? I doubt that

Wasn't a problem for Microsoft and other companies. But then again, those valued their employees...

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by shalmanese on Sunday March 12, 2023 @10:53AM (#35120703)
Facebook's open plan set up didn't come cheap. A Facebook insider once gave me a ballpark figure of how much their giant aircraft hanger cost and I recall it being 3x the price per square foot of private office space which means about 1 - 1.5x the price per employee.
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by imiric on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:13AM (#35120984)
I'm not saying these buildings are "cheap". Just objectively, it's much cheaper to transform a "giant aircraft hangar" (which sounds awful, BTW) into open floor working spaces, than to use the same space to build and design individual offices for everyone. I'm not a civil engineer, but the windows, walls, ventilation, cabling, cooling/heating, etc., is surely much more expensive for individual offices than what open spaces in a "hangar" would require. The cost of interior design would be substantially lower as well. How could this be 3x the price per square foot of private office space? Was this some expensive military property?
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by mcculley on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:24AM (#35121134)
I visited one of these open office spaces recently. It is ridiculous. They have white noise generators in the ceiling. In order to be heard when talking with someone adjacent, one has to speak loud enough to disturb others. Almost everyone wears headphones and does not collaborate in person. They should just be working from home.

I recommend that all those who might compete with me adopt these situations and give up on the difficulties of managing office space.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by shalmanese on Sunday March 12, 2023 @01:03PM (#35122727)
> How could this be 3x the price per square foot of private office space?

It was designed by Frank Gehry and built by Gensler for a client that had an open pocket book. You'd be surprised at how much a pane of glass can cost when it's glass that has to go into a Frank Gehry building.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by lokar on Sunday March 12, 2023 @12:04PM (#35121763)
Tech companies used to have them. Most engineers at Sun were in offices in the 90s
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by red-iron-pine on Monday March 13, 2023 @03:40PM (#35141312)
MS was there in the 90s. But they're still here and Sun ain't.

Not saying it's just offices that saw the... Sun-set... but there are things companies that survive do -- and private offices ain't common.

Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by ResearchCode on Sunday March 12, 2023 @01:00PM (#35122684)
What would it cost? I would take a $10k hit on a $300k wage to get a real office. Seems like a no-brainer.
Re:Meta Rediscovers the Cubicle by apple4ever on Monday March 13, 2023 @11:46AM (#35137359)
Same here. I hate open offices with a passion.